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Posted by Devonin at Oct 11, 2017 10:35:32 PM
Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
So this has come up a couple times in other threads and the general sense of this sort of underpins just about everything being talked about across all the servers. To be blunt, every ocean that isn't Obsidian is basically dead. So far for actual stat tracking I have a pretty small sample size, but I've never checked around all the non-ice servers and seen less than 65% of all online players on Obsidian. It's been as high as 75% and in more than one case, logged into Meridian specifically to see 1 person online.

How much of Obsidian's success is the fresh start, and how much is better marketing, and how much is world pvp is certainly debatable, but one thing I've heard many times from definitely the majority of players I've talked to about it is that they would prefer it to play on a server as populous and active as Obsidian but without mandatory pvp/mandatory sinking out side the starter arch. One of the common responses to floating the idea of opting out of the pvp is "Just leave and go to another server" but this is a non-starter. Oceans need a healthy population to keep everything moving. Having to schedule one day a week outside the game at a specific time to pillage because there's three whole captains running pillages is not how this game is meant to be played.

I honestly don't think that it would be impossible to find a way to implement pvp neutrality into Obsidian in a way that allows those people to play in the "classic" way that still keeps the economy in balance, doesn't split the players into two functional servers inside one, or open itself to exploiting by regular crews. It wouldn't be easy, and I'm no programmer and I understand that a lot of things that sound simple are actually very complicated to implement and vice versa, so take all of this with a grain of salt, but I really think it is worth considering the "compromising" of the vision of Obsidian as a riskier pvp server because, if we're really honest, especially if we look 6 months or a year down the road, this is pretty much the only server there is.

A conception of Neutrality for Obsidian Ocean

As I see it there are a number of particular risks with allowing any kind of opt-out system for PVP on Obsidian ocean, which would all need to be addressed to make it remotely workable as an implementation. Those risks as I see it are:

1/ Neutral crews don't lose ships, which reduces dubloon income and labor demands
2/ Opt-in neutrality would be abused by regular crews to safely transport expensive goods with no risk
3/ Neutrality complicates flag politics, island ownership and blockade mechanics
4/ Neutrality would create two separate non-interacting communities of players

There are other potential concerns, but from what most people have said, those seem to be the main ones. So what kind of system do I propose to make neutrality work?


Neutrality
Sell a Wrapped Badge of Neutrality in the Palace Shop - Make this badge expensive. This is a crew purchase which would be funded through contributions of crew members. This could definitely cost 75 or 100 dubloons. Unwrapping this badge causes your crew to be made Neutral for 30 days. Once unwrapped you are neutral for the full duration of 30 days. When the badge expires, you are prompted to choose a faction, and join it like normal unless or until you unwrap another neutral badge.

Neutral crews cannot join flags or form flags - This is the neatest solution to complications around blockades, island control, and governorship. Crews can't hold islands. Crews can't contend blockades. Don't allow a captain to use a Neutrality badge if they are currently the governor of an island. It has to be passed to somebody not in the crew being made neutral. Have to hand off governorship, and leave the flag before you can use it.

Vilya maintains permanent control of Port Venture, if they weren't planning to anyway - Neutral crews will need a base to operate from, and the central island of the starter arch is the obvious choice. This is more relevant for some economic stuff down the list.

Ships purchased by neutral crewmembers can be marked 'neutral' on pickup - Making the ship itself neutral before it can be used by the neutral crew allows them to implement a number of economic measures and structures in a less complicated way. If you go to deliver a sloop and mark to make it neutral, the game just destroys the sloop and gives you a neutral sloop with the same name instead. This allows a couple things that would need doing for economic reasons that can be coded onto the ship type itself for easier working:

Neutral ships decay like clothing, and will dust - This can scale based on the size of the ship like it does for clothes. This is to ensure that even neutral crews can't just avoid the loss of ships by avoiding PVP. Remember this is about enabling a playstyle that only wants PvE, not protecting people from losing ships/goods. This allows the economy to still need an influx of new ships for neutral crews, and makes abusing neutrality for economic gain of a non-neutral crew much harder/more expensive.

Neutral crewmembers cannot buy commodities into a ship's hold from commodity markets on islands controlled by either faction, except for rum and shot. - So much of the economy wants to be tied up in risk moving commodities from island to island, that neutral crews cannot take part in that. Without this provision, on the 29th day of the badge, ships would load up on every expensive good they needed to move and pile them safely to other markets to await going un-neutral. They can pillage, they can forage, they can win goods from NPCs, but if you want to be a trader merchant, you have to engage with pvp.

Neutral crewmembers selling goods on islands controlled by either faction pay a tax in the form of a rake that is just sunk - Once again, this is to stop neutral crews being exploited by pvp crews to provide safer shipping. You can't buy things outside the neutral islands, or sell them profitably outside the neutral islands. There will always be demand for goods on Port Venture, and markets there, which would be propped up by neutral crews basing themselves there.

Neutral crewmembers can buy regular consumable stuff from anybody - Clothes, swords, anything that gets delivered to you instead of your ship's hold is fine to be purchased from anywhere. Ships are only usable by the crew if marked neutral, so you can even get your own regular ships for possible leaving neutrality later with no issues.

Members of neutral crews can freely job for factional crews - Jobbing on a factional ship is fine, I mean, you can job now for a faction with whom you are at permanent war so there's not even thematic issues here.

Members of factions can freely job for neutral crews - Same thing, none of this needs to change code wise, individual players can job wherever for whomever.

I'm sure I'm missing a few provisions that ought to be included, and I'm sure these can be refined a lot, but it's 1:30am and I've been writing for nearly three hours, so I'm going to leave it here for what I will assume will end up being strenuous objections to how absurd it all is.

But essentially, this is something I feel would be best for the game as a whole. Committing to one single server that can accommodate PvP and PvE players so that it can be focused on for advertising, marketing and made to flourish, hopefully reviving the game some seems like the best financial course for Grey Haven, and if the issues with pulling some people out of the pvp system can be addressed, I think it can be done in a way that is overall positive for the player experience.

So what are your thoughts? Most importantly, do you, if you play on Obsidian, think that you would enjoy yourself more if you had the option to be pvp-neutral, even under some constraints? Do you think you'd pay out more dubloons or poe in the name of getting to be pvp-neutral? Equally importantly, if you currently play on Cerulean, Midnight or Emerald, do you think you would come to Obsidian if you could opt out of pvp?

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 11, 2017 11:07:13 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
No.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by Keaze at Oct 11, 2017 11:33:25 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
No.

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Keaze
That Bombing Guide

Posted by Devonin at Oct 11, 2017 11:37:09 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Of all the worthless crappy reactions I expected for this thread, taking the time to respond just to complete dismiss somebody's efforts like this is pretty sad.

Posted by Faulkston at Oct 12, 2017 12:11:00 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Were you perhaps expecting an even split between "no" and "heck no"? :-D


On a serious note, you're proposing to modify one of the experiments the Developers planned to do with the Obsidian Ocean, namely increased PvP.

With the cost of neutrality being potentially quite high under the proposal, the reason for crews to be neutral on the Obsidian Ocean rather than sail on a classic ocean, would come down to access to a larger player base e.g. jobbing pirates who belong to the two warring factions. That assumes of course that player numbers do remain higher on the Obsidian Ocean, past some initial burst of popularity.
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Posted by ZeroZiat at Oct 12, 2017 12:32:45 AM
what a surprise
Yeah I don't really think making the only PvP-focused server in a game less PvP-focused is good compromise on anything, for either party. Halfway measures never go a long way.

On personal account, I will mention I once had the fleeting thought of crews/players not having to stick to a faction would be a good feeling for people who really didn't want to make that choice or didn't feel attracted by either side... But frankly this server's theme is to just do so and to go with it. I once read a chinese proverb told the reader that when you had to make a decision, it had to be made in less than 7(? i think) exhales... While this thread is not about indecision per se, I guess that's my recommendation to people who can't get a fix on either side.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged except Obsidian.

Posted by HiimEric2001 at Oct 12, 2017 7:22:07 AM
Re: what a surprise
So, it seems like the Neutrality Badge would be a significant expense. If you're paying out anyway, do you think something similar can be accomplished with the social puzzle? If you get PvP'd you can try to bribe your attacker to disengage or to not sink you.

Would a mechanical implementation of that help? Like a trade screen one Captain can issue to the other? I'll give you _______ to disengage. If the other Captain accepts the battle ends immediately. No need to wait 10 turns?

In general, I like the more sinky aspect of this ocean, but I don't know that it's totally dialed in yet, and I'd be up for things that make it a bit less sinky. I am a big proponent of the social puzzle with these things though.
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Cire
Purple Squid Brigade, Inglorious Fandango

 
Nemo says, "Cire has figured me out..."


Posted by ZeroZiat at Oct 12, 2017 7:42:54 AM
Re: what a surprise
I'm down to having a talk over /tells on getting my ship ransomed in case I don't really want to see it sunk. It is not 100% airtight since the other side could also not keep it's word but that's where the social puzzle comes in.

You can denounce them for being not honorable to their own word. How the community handles it would be another topic though.

Adding a mechanic to have it ransomed would be cool but kinda hand-holdey... It really depends on what game they're trying to run, I guess. A bit less sinky would be okay if handled correctly.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged except Obsidian.

Posted by Devonin at Oct 12, 2017 7:51:51 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Faulkston wrote: 
Were you perhaps expecting an even split between "no" and "heck no"? :-D


On a serious note, you're proposing to modify one of the experiments the Developers planned to do with the Obsidian Ocean, namely increased PvP.


If there was any indication whatsoever that any server besides this one was going to grow and get to even where this one is now, sure. But I very much believe looking at the numbers, that this IS the game. This isn't a wacky experiment. It is what determines whether Y!PP continues to exist as a playable game or not.

Yes I'm proposing they modify their conception of this experiment from "I wonder if a more pvp-centric ocean will be popular" to "I wonder if a fresh start ocean might be the only thing that keeps this game alive" so they can say "Yes...yes a fresh start ocean might be the only thing that keeps this game alive, lets try to make that fresh start ocean as appealing to as many people as possible so it can grow"

The most common think I hear from all the old subscription people is "The sinking definitely means I won't play this game like I used to. I won't invest as heavily, I won't go all in"

 
With the cost of neutrality being potentially quite high under the proposal, the reason for crews to be neutral on the Obsidian Ocean rather than sail on a classic ocean, would come down to access to a larger player base e.g. jobbing pirates who belong to the two warring factions. That assumes of course that player numbers do remain higher on the Obsidian Ocean, past some initial burst of popularity.


Yes. That is what it comes down to. People want to play with other people. They want to play where the other people are. Telling people who want to play with a large active group of people but not PVP "Go over there to the server that has never had more than 30 people on at once in years" is just being a jerk. It may seem reasonable and even well-intentioned, but whether people want to accept that this is the reality or not, "go play on another ocean" means "don't play"

From your link to the thread describing the intentions behind Obsidian, literally the first point of their stated purpose in making it is

'We want to introduce Puzzle Pirates to players who have perhaps never played the game before, and there will be much greater exposure to new players with a standalone release on Steam."

They want this new ocean to bring in new people who've never played before. Okay cool. They come in and see an active game with people around and stuff going on, and then they say "This game looks cool, is there a non-pvp option?" and then they have to go back to steam, download a whole new client, create a whole new pirate and get dropped on an empty dock with nothing going on.

Those people will just leave.

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 12, 2017 9:14:16 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
Were you perhaps expecting an even split between "no" and "heck no"? :-D


On a serious note, you're proposing to modify one of the experiments the Developers planned to do with the Obsidian Ocean, namely increased PvP.


After twenty years of watching MMO's: enforced non-consensual PvP is not the path to health, wealth, and happiness. Squared and cubed when a loss in PvP costs the loser considerably in time/money/effort. With the sole exception of Eve (which offers much more than YPP!) pretty much any game that's tried it ends up a dying backwater.

People don't like to lose stuff. It's as simple as that.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 12, 2017 9:14:35 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
"go play on another ocean" means "don't play"


This. +1
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by majestrate at Oct 12, 2017 12:18:36 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
What if another archipelago was added to the south of Greywaters Archipelago, thus expanding the neutral environment? Or even expanding the Greywaters Archipelago itself, to give those who are concerned about sinking the ability to chart longer routes?

Or what if there was a mechanism where you could "rent" a ship from the governor but it meant payouts were reduced by 25-35% (though you were still subject to sinking PvP). In such a scenario, the rental fleet would be built by the governor of the island (similar to how ferrying used to work, back in the day). You could only stock the ship with rum/shot. If non-rum/shot commods were won during a pillage, at the time of divvy those commods would get moved to the palace (or fleet rental shoppe?). If ships were sunk due to sinking PvP, the governor could restore them for small amount of eights (no doubloon cost). If you divvy anywhere other than the owning governor's island, the ship is automatically whisked to the governor's island.

Just a random thought, definitely not something I put any effort into, so feel free to shoot it down, make changes, or add ideas/improvements.
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#TeamEvil
Marto wrote: 
We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3

Posted by Devonin at Oct 12, 2017 12:24:20 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
My primary concern is not, and never was "I don't want my ships to sink" It is "I don't want to PvP. I don't want to engage in ship battles against other humans" and I suspect for a lot of people who don't like the PvP element to Obsidian, that is also their concern.

Are there people who'd opt in because their stuff feels safer? Sure. But it's more that every element of this game is fun and great PvE and the addition of mandatory PvP with or without sinking, was always a detraction, and the stronger emphasis on it here makes it more of one. The fact that a bunch of the game will also include mandatory sinking does make it worse sure, but I'd happily commit to a method of my ships needing replacing periodically to never have to fight against other humans.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 12, 2017 12:34:31 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
What if another archipelago was added to the south of Greywaters Archipelago, thus expanding the neutral environment? Or even expanding the Greywaters Archipelago itself, to give those who are concerned about sinking the ability to chart longer routes?

Yes please. But this may run the problem of the previous oceans, too big of a playing ground, too little people.

 
Or what if there was a mechanism where you could "rent" a ship from the governor but it meant payouts were reduced by 25-35% (though you were still subject to sinking PvP). In such a scenario, the rental fleet would be built by the governor of the island (similar to how ferrying used to work, back in the day). You could only stock the ship with rum/shot. If non-rum/shot commods were won during a pillage, at the time of divvy those commods would get moved to the palace (or fleet rental shoppe?). If ships were sunk due to sinking PvP, the governor could restore them for small amount of eights (no doubloon cost). If you divvy anywhere other than the owning governor's island, the ship is automatically whisked to the governor's island.

Just a random thought, definitely not something I put any effort into, so feel free to shoot it down, make changes, or add ideas/improvements.

Like navy, but better risk/rewards? Sign me up. I actually like playing with the navy, I would like it better if I didn't get pretty much no recompansation.

Also, the reason I don't really want to leave the greywaters is, I really don't want to rebuild me painted/renamed ship anyway. And I would be fine with PvP as well, if I didn't keep finding myself in 1v4 battles. (I know you mentioned this on that other thread.) So, I would like this ship for hire ordeal.

Although the rum/shot thing might need to be arranged a bit better. I wouldn't want to dump all that extra rum just because I couldn't finish it. Maybe, hmm, remove the remaining rum/cannon balls and set it to deliver to my pirate for the port that I left in?
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 12, 2017 12:43:31 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
People don't like to lose stuff. It's as simple as that.


Some, others realize its part of the battle. I have lost many ships in kades and it stings a little bit but I accepted it as part of the game.

I am not ok with losing a load of Herbs or Minerals. Its clearly a very piratey practice to pvp and it adds a lot to the game. Sadly as I have said as have others its very lopsided the larger loss/risk allways seems to fall on the prey ship. The easiest fix it to make the attacker put more skin in the game. I have suggested putting some poe in the booty as a way for this, still think its a good idea.

Make a pvp ocean safe is going to be manipulated kade stock will be moved in safe flags/crews just like they are on other oceans.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by majestrate at Oct 12, 2017 2:04:38 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
My primary concern is not, and never was "I don't want my ships to sink" It is "I don't want to PvP. I don't want to engage in ship battles against other humans" and I suspect for a lot of people who don't like the PvP element to Obsidian, that is also their concern.

Are there people who'd opt in because their stuff feels safer? Sure. But it's more that every element of this game is fun and great PvE and the addition of mandatory PvP with or without sinking, was always a detraction, and the stronger emphasis on it here makes it more of one. The fact that a bunch of the game will also include mandatory sinking does make it worse sure, but I'd happily commit to a method of my ships needing replacing periodically to never have to fight against other humans.

The PvP element of PP:DS is no different than that of YPP. The only thing that is different is that there is now a permanent war, so sinking PvP is possible without dealing with flags declaring war on one another. But that's politics, not PvP.

I don't get how you, or anyone, thinks that if Cerulean or Emerald were as active as Obsidian is, that you'd be so much happier there because you still can't "opt out" of PvP.
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#TeamEvil
Marto wrote: 
We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 12, 2017 2:35:07 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 


I don't get how you, or anyone, thinks that if Cerulean or Emerald were as active as Obsidian is, that you'd be so much happier there because you still can't "opt out" of PvP.


The take is less 25% vs 100% its not sinky.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by majestrate at Oct 12, 2017 2:49:44 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Filthyjake wrote: 
majestrate wrote: 


I don't get how you, or anyone, thinks that if Cerulean or Emerald were as active as Obsidian is, that you'd be so much happier there because you still can't "opt out" of PvP.


The take is less 25% vs 100% its not sinky.

Devonin wrote: 
My primary concern is not, and never was "I don't want my ships to sink" It is "I don't want to PvP. I don't want to engage in ship battles against other humans" and I suspect for a lot of people who don't like the PvP element to Obsidian, that is also their concern.

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#TeamEvil
Marto wrote: 
We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 12, 2017 3:32:22 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Speaking for myself, the significant risk of loss (even for a Sloop or Cutter) is many hours' worth of work to buy/replace. It's even worse when you're new, and people won't let you go on more lucrative Pillages.

I typically end up as a Jobber on random Pillages where I get ~3k per hour. I do occasionally get better runs, but that seems to be the common level. More dangerous runs (Krakens, etc.) are generally not welcoming for people who don't have experience, which becomes a catch-22 - I can't get the experience because people won't take me.

This is, in fact, the reason I left my last crew. One of the two Senior Officers regularly scheduled Sea Monster runs, but refused to allow me to go along, because my puzzle ranking isn't high enough.

So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?

Posted by Devonin at Oct 12, 2017 4:16:48 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
majestrate wrote: 
I don't get how you, or anyone, thinks that if Cerulean or Emerald were as active as Obsidian is, that you'd be so much happier there because you still can't "opt out" of PvP.


 
and the addition of mandatory PvP with or without sinking, was always a detraction, and the stronger emphasis on it here makes it more of one


Was always an issue, is more of one here for several reasons.

Posted by Devonin at Oct 12, 2017 4:19:08 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Having to spend dubs on clothes which dust is one thing, because they decay at a fixed rate that is the same for everybody.

Having to stick to one arch or risk somebody who just decides to not like you (say, to teach you a lesson about making forum threads asking for a way to opt out of pvp :P ) could actively hunt for you and sink you every time you try to go out and cost you multiple real dollars every time.

Posted by ZeroZiat at Oct 12, 2017 4:58:40 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Devonin wrote: 
risk somebody who just decides to not like you (say, to teach you a lesson about making forum threads asking for a way to opt out of pvp :P ) could actively hunt for you and sink you every time you try to go out and cost you multiple real dollars every time.
I'm pretty sure if it gets that bad you can talk it through or tell an OM you're being outright griefed off the game.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged except Obsidian.

Posted by Devonin at Oct 12, 2017 5:22:24 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
I'd be astonished if that was considered against the rules. You sail a ship into sinking waters, and somebody from the opposing faction is waiting for you? Isn't that the point of risky PvP ocean?

Posted by ZeroZiat at Oct 12, 2017 5:33:02 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Devonin wrote: 
I'd be astonished if that was considered against the rules. You sail a ship into sinking waters, and somebody from the opposing faction is waiting for you? Isn't that the point of risky PvP ocean?
I'm pretty sure fairplay PvP and clear-cut harassment are different.
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/Terms.xhtml wrote: 
Harassment
Harassment can be defined as repeated actions that target an individual or group for the purpose of bringing about feelings of discomfort or distress. Harassment is not allowed and may result in an account being banned from the game.
Mind you, this is all regarding with the previous condition you mentioned (ex. somebody disagreeing with your opt-out PvP advocacy and trying to griff you off the game because you're getting annoying for them).

Sailing into the Dark Seas, you should expect opposition of course but if someone's waiting 1 LP away from your home archipelago with the sole purpose of ganking you everytime you show up, that's probably harrasment.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged except Obsidian.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 12, 2017 6:50:04 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
 
So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Cerulean, where the total player count is double-digits? No thanks.

Current server status and number of players logged on:

OK Emerald 192
OK Cerulean 33
OK Jade 0
OK Ice 0
OK Obsidian 540
OK Opal 0
OK Meridian 14

Posted by Devonin at Oct 12, 2017 11:58:02 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
 
 
So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Cerulean, where the total player count is double-digits? No thanks.

Current server status and number of players logged on:

OK Emerald 192
OK Cerulean 33
OK Jade 0
OK Ice 0
OK Obsidian 540
OK Opal 0
OK Meridian 14


I was not advocating playing there. I was highlighting the difference in costs acquiring items that -don't- have a chance to be permanently lost and need replacing unless you choose to risk them as being substantially lower than the place where you may need to replace them frequently.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 13, 2017 1:05:51 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
 
 
 
So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Cerulean, where the total player count is double-digits? No thanks.


I was not advocating playing there. I was highlighting the difference in costs acquiring items that -don't- have a chance to be permanently lost and need replacing unless you choose to risk them as being substantially lower than the place where you may need to replace them frequently.

I would argue that is as much because it is an old, OLD ocean, and the resulting overall stockpile and cruft of ships has made the market drop due to a significantly lower demand. A newer ocean, even without the always-on PvP rule, would have similarly high demands for ships until most people had the ships that they wanted and used regularly. Although Obsidian has been officially open for several months, it was the official opening and announcement on Steam that resulted in a new surge of players, and therefore a new demand for ships.

Perhaps the price will drop some in the coming months, but as it is now, buying a new ship is not cheap, and the cost of replacing a lost ship (in measure of man-hours spent to earn it) is a significant deterrent to embracing that risk. If the Dubs delivery cost was halved (or, dare I say it, quartered), it would help noticeably.

Even people who enjoy PvP are far less likely to do it when the risk is high and the reward is low. Fixing both of these is the key to keeping a volatile PvP ocean going strong.

Posted by Jcmorgan6 at Oct 13, 2017 1:10:13 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
 
 
 
So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Cerulean, where the total player count is double-digits? No thanks.

Current server status and number of players logged on:

OK Emerald 192
OK Cerulean 33
OK Jade 0
OK Ice 0
OK Obsidian 540
OK Opal 0
OK Meridian 14


I was not advocating playing there. I was highlighting the difference in costs acquiring items that -don't- have a chance to be permanently lost and need replacing unless you choose to risk them as being substantially lower than the place where you may need to replace them frequently.



That's not really the avenue you want to take with your argument, comparing a Subscriber ocean with a Doubloon ocean isn't fair. If you were to compare Obsidian to a Doubloon ocean, you'll notice Doubloons prices for ships have already been decreased for this reason, as you can compare here.
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Jjc & Jice on Emerald
CI booty division stats

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 13, 2017 8:20:03 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
I wasn't the one who brought Cerulean into the argument in the first place.

And yes, I'm aware that Dub prices are lower than other oceans, but the fact remains that unless you're talking about people who routinely go on spectacular pillages, loss of a ship is a significant cost for the average player. And that's just considering rebuild cost, not even talking about loss of cargo.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 13, 2017 8:39:44 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
loss of a ship is a significant cost for the average player. And that's just considering rebuild cost, not even talking about loss of cargo.


Roughly about 15 hours of their lives for just the delivery cost of a sloop. Maybe about 5 more for the actual price of the ship. Unless you're a "elite" player getting 2-3k per battle. Balancing the game for those people would be mean to the average players.
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Jcmorgan6 at Oct 13, 2017 9:48:56 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
I wasn't the one who brought Cerulean into the argument in the first place.

And yes, I'm aware that Dub prices are lower than other oceans, but the fact remains that unless you're talking about people who routinely go on spectacular pillages, loss of a ship is a significant cost for the average player. And that's just considering rebuild cost, not even talking about loss of cargo.


Apologies, I was replying to the person above you, you posted between me opening the thread and replying. I've edited my post to include quotes for clarity.
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Jjc & Jice on Emerald
CI booty division stats

Posted by majestrate at Oct 13, 2017 2:39:47 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
I would argue that is as much because it is an old, OLD ocean, and the resulting overall stockpile and cruft of ships has made the market drop due to a significantly lower demand. A newer ocean, even without the always-on PvP rule, would have similarly high demands for ships until most people had the ships that they wanted and used regularly. Although Obsidian has been officially open for several months, it was the official opening and announcement on Steam that resulted in a new surge of players, and therefore a new demand for ships.

Pretty sure I remember buying sloops for 14,000-18,000 eights back in 2004/2005.
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Posted by Sagacious at Oct 13, 2017 3:09:53 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
So to elaborate on my initial reaction:
No to anything reducing the PvP on a PvP ocean
No to anything that allows players to pay anything - big or small - to avoid PvP. You can charge people 10mil PoE and they'll still find a way to pay it if given the option. It's not only stupid pay-to-not-play, but also means that funding efforts on the ocean are diverted from getting battle-ready to avoiding battles.
No to any new situation which creates additional safezones, areas where enemies can freely hang around and taunt without a risk of being attacked/sunk
No to requiring PvP-seeking ships to fulfill additional requirements before engaging in a PvP battle.

Loss is a part of the game in Dark Seas - and everyone is subject to it. There's no need to curb PvP to reduce the losses experienced through losing a PvP engagement. Just be better prepared overall.

Flags and crews are still very much getting used to the ways in which increased PvP availability on the ocean affects them. It will be political solutions within the game that will help resolve any unfairness currently felt by players who are not enjoying the fact they lost their WB while out pillaging and minding their own business.

It's how the game used to be played before everything just got stagnant from everyone having everything they wanted and no one having to actually plan properly for things, and the masterminds of amazing game political showdowns retired (or were banned -.-)
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 13, 2017 4:59:20 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
Flags and crews are still very much getting used to the ways in which increased PvP availability on the ocean affects them. It will be political solutions within the game that will help resolve any unfairness currently felt by players who are not enjoying the fact they lost their WB while out pillaging and minding their own business.

It's how the game used to be played before everything just got stagnant from everyone having everything they wanted and no one having to actually plan properly for things, and the masterminds of amazing game political showdowns retired (or were banned -.-)


Ah so the few on top of the social game will decided what happens sounds great every thing most hate about the other oceans.

So they were so good at the game they violated the rules which made them amazing masterminds? Seems off but I am certainly not one of the connected because I think for myself.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 13, 2017 5:14:39 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
I'm sorry you feel politics shouldn't be part of a pirate game. Banned was added in as an unrelated tid-bit of history (and as a joke).

Asking for mechanics to opt out of PvP is just not the way it should be done right now. Play the game for longer than a few months and let's see what creative ways people come up with other than just resorting to suggestions that involve adding in unfun opt-out mechanics.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 13, 2017 5:30:40 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
I'm sorry you feel politics shouldn't be part of a pirate game.


Its not that I don't I but its a game the politics are full time job, granted the lack of multiclinting makes it easier to keep track of who is actually who... incognito oh wait your either not on the ocean or in hiding. As that pirate has zero stats and not been on since sept. But hey the 200 followers have been around and will probably still be this time next year.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 13, 2017 5:52:01 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Yes politics is a full time job, as part of being a monarch, captain and royal/SO depending on the organisation. The point I am making is that players can be very creative in how they organise themselves in adapting to things in the game to make things less problematic. I have every faith that over time, there will be a fresh set of ideas and creative ways to resolve current concerns. A combination of dedicated types of players will take to specific tasks/roles within the game that previously were not a thing or rarely needed - like defending flag/crew voyages or helping to handle persistent PvP threats to their flag/crew. Diplomacy, alliances and pacts all form part of this as well.
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Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 13, 2017 6:38:15 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
Flags and crews are still very much getting used to the ways in which increased PvP availability on the ocean affects them. It will be political solutions within the game that will help resolve any unfairness currently felt by players who are not enjoying the fact they lost their WB while out pillaging and minding their own business.


So long as you're a player/crew/flag dialed in to the political puzzle. Or more correctly, dialed into the right political faction within the political puzzle. Everyone else is screwed.

 
It's how the game used to be played before everything just got stagnant from everyone having everything they wanted and no one having to actually plan properly for things, and the masterminds of amazing game political showdowns retired (or were banned -.-)


Not back when I played. Back then PvP, while not uncommon, was certainly not the norm. Not that it's relevant anyhow, because the risks were infinitesimal back then compared to now because there was no sinking.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 13, 2017 7:15:44 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
Yes politics is a full time job, as part of being a monarch, captain and royal/SO depending on the organisation. The point I am making is that players can be very creative in how they organise themselves in adapting to things in the game to make things less problematic. I have every faith that over time, there will be a fresh set of ideas and creative ways to resolve current concerns. A combination of dedicated types of players will take to specific tasks/roles within the game that previously were not a thing or rarely needed - like defending flag/crew voyages or helping to handle persistent PvP threats to their flag/crew. Diplomacy, alliances and pacts all form part of this as well.

Fresh ideas generally requires new information, new elements, or new circumstances. What we're looking at here is none of that, it's just the same information, elements, and circumstances that the other oceans have dealt with, but with the PvP turned up to 11.

Just about the only thing "new" we'll see is dedicated "sink 'em all" brigades hunting for people who are trying to earn enough money for boats etc.

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 13, 2017 7:19:36 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
The ocean isn't old enough to have had a chance to let this "problem" fix itself.
 
So long as you're a player/crew/flag dialed in to the political puzzle. Or more correctly, dialed into the right political faction within the political puzzle. Everyone else is screwed.
HWFO is real. By default all flags are dialled into a political game in Puzzle Pirates. You can choose to play this how you wish though. Which faction you're on really doesn't matter - there's already been pledges to assist a faction that's struggling in numbers by Grey Havens.
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Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 13, 2017 8:02:42 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
D-d-d-d-double post!

What about if the general ongoing war was more than just about islands controlled? What if PvP could be incentivised by a game mechanic that uses the previous week's PvP performance to provide a faction with a game benefit?

This benefit could either be on or off, depending on which faction "won" the previous week. Or it could be scaled depending on how victorious that faction was vs the other, with both factions having some benefit but the more successful side benefiting more.

Ideas for benefits include sales tax reduction (on faction-owned islands only?), % bonus extra PoE earned from PoE fountains (chests, brigand victories, hauling in SMH), doubloon delivery fee discounts, some form of puzzling effort potency mechanic (maybe restricted only to PvE activities like SMH and brigands).
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 14, 2017 12:21:26 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
By default all flags are dialled into a political game in Puzzle Pirates.


Um, no. Flags can choose to not play the political game at all. Back in the 'old days', many flags made exactly that choice.

 
Which faction you're on really doesn't matter - there's already been pledges to assist a faction that's struggling in numbers by Grey Havens.


You didn't read my message - I didn't say "game faction", I said "political faction", which is a different matter entirely.

Posted by majestrate at Oct 14, 2017 5:19:06 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
D-d-d-d-double post!

What about if the general ongoing war was more than just about islands controlled? What if PvP could be incentivised by a game mechanic that uses the previous week's PvP performance to provide a faction with a game benefit?

This benefit could either be on or off, depending on which faction "won" the previous week. Or it could be scaled depending on how victorious that faction was vs the other, with both factions having some benefit but the more successful side benefiting more.

Ideas for benefits include sales tax reduction (on faction-owned islands only?), % bonus extra PoE earned from PoE fountains (chests, brigand victories, hauling in SMH), doubloon delivery fee discounts, some form of puzzling effort potency mechanic (maybe restricted only to PvE activities like SMH and brigands).

While I don't agree with the sentiment of allowing people a method to opt-out of PvP by any means other than performance on the duty navigation puzzle, I also don't agree that the incentive to PvP should be increased any further than what it already is.

I don't believe that pirates currently going solo on ships are at that great of a risk for PvP (unless there's one crew/flag that is looking to drive pirates out of another crew/flag), but a change such as this would probably increase the risk.

Which means, potentially, that you will now have an increase of instances where 3 or 4 alts on a sloop going after a solo on his main, also on a sloop, so that the alt's faction can gain a benefit.

Address the alt abuse issue via game mechanics and not /complain or Petition and this idea might be worth pursuing.
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#TeamEvil
Marto wrote: 
We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3

Posted by BobJanova at Oct 14, 2017 5:33:29 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Firstly, if you mean 'opt out of PVP' not 'opt out of sinking', then that is just a ridiculous suggestion. That would make carebearing on Obsidian even safer than on the safe oceans, since PVP is permitted everywhere (even off Lima dock ...) on all oceans at present.

As for being able to opt out of sinking PVP: The whole point of Obsidian is that there is risk associated with the more lucrative areas of the game. The only way to balance a suggestion like this is for it to be so expensive it isn't worth it, at which point why introduce it at all?

What we need is not the option to evade PVP entirely, but game mechanics to make it possible to avoid being caught (actually this already exists, it's called dnav), some possibility of gaining something if you fight back and win (TH or partial salvage of sunk ships?), and an understanding by the players that it's a PVP ocean and you need to protect yourself against ganking.

It would also be good if battles could be escalated, so sailing in a fleet makes sense. Anyone who plays Eve knows that coordination between ships is what makes fights interesting and dynamic, but any PVP in YPP is always effectively 1v1. This would also play well with suggestions that let you have more effective NPCs staffing a ship.
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Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
Stripped/Barely Dressed (Malachite)
Phantasm/Reign of Chaos (Viridian)

Posted by Devonin at Oct 15, 2017 1:17:37 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
BobJanova wrote: 
Firstly, if you mean 'opt out of PVP' not 'opt out of sinking', then that is just a ridiculous suggestion. That would make carebearing on Obsidian even safer than on the safe oceans, since PVP is permitted everywhere (even off Lima dock ...) on all oceans at present.


Wanting to play that way is not ridiculous. Seeing if a balanced way to allow people who want to play that way to do so is possible is not ridiculous. 'Carebearing' is dismissive and patronizing. Saying 'There is a segment of your playerbase that would very likely consider paying a premium to have the kind of experience they'd prefer, maybe we should see if there are ways to make it so that style of play can be enabled without messing things up for other people' should be EXACTLY the kind of game design suggestion the staff want.

I'm sitting here saying "Lets talk about a way to make the company more money, make some more players happy, and do our level best to not make any other players unhappy" and you're basically telling me I'm a ridiculous buffoon.

 
on the safe oceans


As we've said and tried to get people to understand for some time now, for all intents and purposes, there are no oceans besides this one. There are some interactive museums but there's no there there.

Posted by katiemac at Oct 15, 2017 2:48:09 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 

I'm sitting here saying "Lets talk about a way to make the company more money, make some more players happy, and do our level best to not make any other players unhappy" and you're basically telling me I'm a ridiculous buffoon.


Amen to that (not the part about being called a buffoon). I'm one of the people who, while I don't care for PVP, used to put up with it years ago when I played YPP. I came back to see DS, and since I don't want to risk my ships being sunk, am stuck in the one "safe" arch.

Being told to go play on one of a variety of underpopulated servers is not an option that does anything but drive me (and others like me) from the game.

If the idea is to present a game that entices new players, sinking PVP isn't the answer. It will drive out of Obsidian new players, and those of us who don't want our ships sunk, with no other viable ocean open to us.

Posted by Devonin at Oct 16, 2017 12:58:47 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
 

I'm sitting here saying "Lets talk about a way to make the company more money, make some more players happy, and do our level best to not make any other players unhappy" and you're basically telling me I'm a ridiculous buffoon.


Amen to that (not the part about being called a buffoon). I'm one of the people who, while I don't care for PVP, used to put up with it years ago when I played YPP. I came back to see DS, and since I don't want to risk my ships being sunk, am stuck in the one "safe" arch.

Being told to go play on one of a variety of underpopulated servers is not an option that does anything but drive me (and others like me) from the game.

If the idea is to present a game that entices new players, sinking PVP isn't the answer. It will drive out of Obsidian new players, and those of us who don't want our ships sunk, with no other viable ocean open to us.


And see, this thread, while I felt like I did present at least a good starting point for a potential way to address this, had less to do with addressing it, and more to do with demonstrating to TPTB that there are others who feel this way too who might be worth appealing to.

There's more of us than you think, and we'll spend money for ways to play the way we want.

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 16, 2017 3:55:31 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
It's no secret that PVP is half the point of Dark Seas. It's practically been in the strapline since the first announcement post. You can't then start playing it and then ask that such a fundamental thing be changed so you don't have to be a part of it.
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Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by SeaGi at Oct 16, 2017 10:22:46 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Change the game mechanic to allow multiple ships to aid one another by entering an "in progress" sea battle, two or more ships from the same faction could provide each other mutual defense as long as the might ring will allow it. If you see a sea battle, you can enter the battle to assist in the fight, or run interference or delay the enemy while the other ship escapes to port if on a merch run. The overall might of one side or the other could change as more ships engage or fall out of battle, so a third ship would not be allowed to pile on a 2v1 battle, but a second ship could join on the single ships side making it 2v2. Once two ships hook, they are removed from the board for the fray. After the fray they could re-enter the battle after a cool-down.

I believe the mechanic is there, run it like a blockade board where the factions can enter either side depending on direction of travel, the caveat is that once a ship enters the board its on the board until you can click to disengage, grapple or sink, theres no exit or safe zone.

Team tactics, team play, pvp focused, less mandatory risk if you play it right.
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Ex-downpressor of Babylon
Thankfully Retired

Posted by wrs1864b at Oct 16, 2017 11:42:24 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
It's no secret that PVP is half the point of Dark Seas. It's practically been in the strapline since the first announcement post.

Yeah, that has always puzzled me. PvP in YPP isn't that fun of a puzzle and has lots of other problems with it. Bnav vs brigands isn't too bad because brigands are fairly stupid and fairly predictable. Bnav on the blockade board can be quite fun.

But 1v1 PvP? Yuck. It can be "fun" for the attacker when they cheat by using low stat alts, or loading up the other ship with alts that jump ship when the PvP happens, or doing various other things that will get you banned eventually, but two well staffed ships can shoot hundreds of cbs, be pretty aggressive, and still end up being a pure waste of time.

Back when OOO ran the OCL, they went to great lengths to make sure that ships had barely enough players and combined with the glass-cannon long ships, meant that you actually had fun.

So, yeah, PvP is the "big" thing about Obsidian, and yet GH hasn't done squat to make PvP good.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 16, 2017 1:06:28 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
So, yeah, PvP is the "big" thing about Obsidian, and yet GH hasn't done squat to make PvP good.


Pretty much this - and in some ways, by upping the risk to "innocents" (those not actively hunting other players and/or going about their daily business) by introducing sinking... They've made PvP worse from the point of the view of the "innocent" players.

It's no longer "I've lost some stuff and now I need to carp and bilge". Now it's potentially "I've lost everything - cargo, poe, and dubs (to recover a sunken vessel)". When losing a single battle can cost you days or weeks of work, the average player (and especially the merchants) likely aren't going to stick around very long.

Unless you're Eve Online, the player numbers and the money aren't in enforced high risk non consensual PvP.

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 16, 2017 2:24:03 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Sure PvP engagements could be made more fun and interesting. However, the concepts of "innocents" and how they factor in to PvP should be less of a shielding/opt-out one. It's the duty of the crews and flags of the ocean to protect the innocents in this case really, or to compensate them if they're caught up. Retribution too.
----------------------------------------
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Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 16, 2017 2:33:00 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
For those people who are holding EVE Online up as an example of a PvP-centric game... you might want to read this.

Short version: The majority of players in EVE spend most of their time in "High-Sec," and nearly half of the player base never (or almost never) leaves "high-sec." The glory stories you hear about PvP in Null-Sec are a tiny percentage of the player base - 10% or less. Most players only do PvP occasionally, if at all.

The idea of PvP driving a player base is a fallacy from the start. Unless a game is specifically and completely devoted to PvP (like Overwatch, MOBAs, etc), then you're going to have a very large percentage of the player base that is resistant to PvP, if not completely opposed to it.

Personally, I don't mind PvP when there's something worthwhile in it. I don't mind losing a ship-to-ship fight when the stakes are generally similar, and the penalty for losing isn't large. But as others have already spelled out (attacker can have a PvP-focused team, no goods to lose aside from cannonballs and rum), it's a very lopsided setup. The attackers essentially have little skin in the game, so to speak.

For the PvP ship to sail, there needs to be more to it. More risk for the attackers, less cost for the losers (regardless of whether that's attackers or defenders).

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 16, 2017 3:23:09 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Sagacious:
 
Sure PvP engagements could be made more fun and interesting. However, the concepts of "innocents" and how they factor in to PvP should be less of a shielding/opt-out one. It's the duty of the crews and flags of the ocean to protect the innocents in this case really, or to compensate them if they're caught up. Retribution too.


That was tried back in Ultima Online back in the 90's. Didn't work then, I've seen no evidence to indicate that there's any reason to believe it will work now.

Nek0jin:
 
For those people who are holding EVE Online up as an example of a PvP-centric game... you might want to read this.

Short version: The majority of players in EVE spend most of their time in "High-Sec," and nearly half of the player base never (or almost never) leaves "high-sec." The glory stories you hear about PvP in Null-Sec are a tiny percentage of the player base - 10% or less. Most players only do PvP occasionally, if at all.


Interesting, the publicity makes it seem quite the opposite. Thank you for finding that.

 
The idea of PvP driving a player base is a fallacy from the start. Unless a game is specifically and completely devoted to PvP (like Overwatch, MOBAs, etc), then you're going to have a very large percentage of the player base that is resistant to PvP, if not completely opposed to it.


Exactly. And that's something that's been proven time and time again in game after game ever since the Great Experiment failed in Ultima Online nearly twenty years ago - the vast majority of players (serious and casual) will avoid non consensual PvP.

Which is why I can't understand why the Haveners are making it a centerpiece for DS.

Posted by Griffus8 at Oct 16, 2017 4:36:37 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
My thing about obsidian is its fairly new so we don't know what is in the works. Always new stuff. Meridian is dead. Emerald is slowly crawling to death. Cerulean is in the double digits but you can sail a ship, kraken run and blockade even and still have fun. Would i like to see more players on the sub ocean? Yes! 9.99 a month for a sub for Unlimited access and no dub delivery fee is great. Ive always been a dublooner but go to Cerulean at times. Obisidan is where its at now..


Griffus emerald,cerulean and Obsidian.

Posted by wrs1864b at Oct 16, 2017 5:47:58 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
Sure PvP engagements could be made more fun and interesting.

That is a massive understatement. 1v1 bnav is one of, if not *the*, worst puzzle in the game. That shouldn't be what you center your new version of the game around.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.

Posted by Devonin at Oct 16, 2017 8:31:13 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
It's no secret that PVP is half the point of Dark Seas. It's practically been in the strapline since the first announcement post. You can't then start playing it and then ask that such a fundamental thing be changed so you don't have to be a part of it.


I can and I have. Because what I'm doing is starting to play it, realizing "This isn't just 'The PvP server' among all the servers. This is THE SERVER and since it is THE SERVER, it is important that anybody who has a vision for how this server can be made more successful and appealing and encourage the most kinds of people to stay should speak up and say so.

I own a community business. I run events multiple times a week. When you create an event for a certain thing, you naturally limit how many people will take part in it.

Most of my business is in Magic the Gathering. It is a game of many formats, and some people play only one, some people play multiple. I've had 212 unique players at sanctioned events in my store (which is more than 61% of stores worldwide, which isn't bad for a town of 17,000 people) but with 212 players, the most I've ever had at a single event in the last year is 33.

When I run a Standard event, I get 6-14 people. When I run a Modern event, I get 6-14 people. When I run a Draft event, I get 6-14 people. When I run a no-format casual fun night, I get 12-30 people. Pretty much this is consistent year round. 4 times I year I get to run a bigger scale more competitive event that pulls in 16-40. There is ALMOST NO overlap between those 16-40 and the people who make up everything else. Those are the PvP equivalent.

So yes, my biggest event is the one that is most like PvP (Higher barrier to entry, more relevant prizes, naturally more competitive, attracting the highest skilled/highest investment players)

But if I only did those events, the 16-40 across all four events might be 50-100 unique people, probably less. Less than HALF the playerbase I actually have.

The thing that gets that full 212 is that the ones who just want to come to funsies casual night can come and play casually for funsies. No cost to enter, and sure, no prizes, but they're there because the game itself is fun, and adding in heavy competition makes them have less fun. Play Modern? We support that. Play Standard? We support that. Play Draft? We support that. Play casual? We support that.

And guess which segment spends the most money in the store? Without any contest at all, it's the casual people who have never entered a for-pay tournament in their life. There's more of them, they don't care as much about being optimal, they care about having fun with their friends. Supporting them makes my store notable and popular in comparison to other competitors nearby. People praise the fact that I have support for both casual and competitive players, and I end up financially and numerically competitive with stores in cities 4 times my size and bigger.

If you can make an effort to appeal to as many people as possible, those people will all support you.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 16, 2017 9:01:49 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Well said.

The issue isn't PvP vs. PvE. It's Open-ocean PvP and PvE Pillaging and Monster Hunting PvE and Blockade PvP and Island Governance (both PvP and Co-Op, in its own ways).

None of these need to be in conflict with each other. The game has to make them all work to one degree or another. Shoving out the PvP'ers won't work. Putting them up on a pedestal won't, either. Anyone who views it as one or the other is blinded to the real problems.

Fundamentally, the problem with PvP in a PvE environment is that nobody likes to be victimized. And that's what happens when PvP enthusiasts push it onto PvE'ers who are just trying to have a little fun pillaging. The "Red vs. Grey" divide is all well and good, but even so, you're effectively crowding the people who don't want to be ambushed to stay in the "kiddy pool." Or risk significant losses for the chance to get out into the wider world and other gameplay elements.

I don't know how the PvP element is looking at the game now. I'm not in tune with who is doing what. But I can say with certain that people who lose two, three ships from being ambushed start wondering where the fun is. Maybe some stay, work hard to rebuild those ships. But some in this situation will decide that it's not worth their time, and go find something else to play.

And the game loses players.

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 16, 2017 11:03:01 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
Fundamentally, the problem with PvP in a PvE environment is that nobody likes to be victimized. And that's what happens when PvP enthusiasts push it onto PvE'ers who are just trying to have a little fun pillaging.


Precisely.

 
But I can say with certain that people who lose two, three ships from being ambushed start wondering where the fun is. Maybe some stay, work hard to rebuild those ships. But some in this situation will decide that it's not worth their time, and go find something else to play.

And the game loses players.


We do need to be clear here, the real problem isn't PvP itself - it's sinking PvP (which is peculiar to Obsidian) which turns the risk-v-reward curve completely upside down.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 16, 2017 11:18:30 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
We do need to be clear here, the real problem isn't PvP itself - it's sinking PvP (which is peculiar to Obsidian) which turns the risk-v-reward curve completely upside down.

Right, which is what my focus has been on from the start.

Although I was talking about reducing the cost of ships, perhaps the cure isn't the cost of ships, but rather the cost of Ships in a Bottle. Reduce the rebuild cost - reduce the Dub cost there, or even eliminate it completely - and the loss of the ship stops being so severe.

That, however, is a Dub sink that they were probably planning on with the PvP nature of the ocean, so if they do that, they're going to need to put in another Dub sink somewhere else to balance it out.

Posted by cmdrzoom at Oct 17, 2017 1:25:11 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Going back to the first page, with a nod to the posts on the second:

 

On a serious note, you're proposing to modify one of the experiments the Developers planned to do with the Obsidian Ocean, namely increased PvP.


I submit that this experiment has failed.
People are playing on this ocean in spite of PvP, not because of it. It is something that they are enduring - for now - in order to be able to play the game (with a reasonable number of active fellow players) at all.
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 17, 2017 3:12:34 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
I'd submit that there's plenty of players enthused and engaged in PVP and claims of failure are vastly exaggerated
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 17, 2017 3:23:18 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
I'd submit that there's plenty of players enthused and engaged in PVP and claims of failure are vastly exaggerated


I think we all are trying to prove our point using anecdotal evidence, which is next to garbage. Could someone post a poll so that we can see the numbers? An in game one would be few magnitudes better, obviously, since not all players visit the forums. But just to see some hard numbers on the forums.
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 17, 2017 3:23:48 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
I can and I have. Because what I'm doing is starting to play it, realizing "This isn't just 'The PvP server' among all the servers. This is THE SERVER and since it is THE SERVER, it is important that anybody who has a vision for how this server can be made more successful and appealing and encourage the most kinds of people to stay should speak up and say so.

I own a community business. I run events multiple times a week. When you create an event for a certain thing, you naturally limit how many people will take part in it.

Most of my business is in Magic the Gathering.

And guess which segment spends the most money in the store? Without any contest at all, it's the casual people who have never entered a for-pay tournament in their life.

Grey Havens isn't for profit, at least not at last check. I'm not sure your model theory fully applies here.

This is a different game in some respects to the original Puzzle Pirates and you must understand that just because you're clearly jealous of the increased numbers of players on Obsidian, you cannot write off the other servers. You're playing on the first server of a new realm.

Most players are enjoying PVP just fine. They'd be here saying how much they are fine with it or enjoying it, but they are very busy actually playing the game. If you're a casual player looking for a more PVE only experience, go back to your respective oceans from whence you came.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 17, 2017 5:19:08 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
If you're a casual player looking for a more PVE only experience, go back to your respective oceans from whence you came.


I love this argument the same one is used with poker. If you don't like it quit I am happy.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 17, 2017 8:14:46 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
Grey Havens isn't for profit, at least not at last check.
 
Most players are enjoying PVP just fine.


As they say, "citation needed" on both these claims.

And keep in mind that the money to to keep the servers on has to come from *somewhere*. "Not for profit" doesn't mean "doesn't need income".

 
I think we all are trying to prove our point using anecdotal evidence, which is next to garbage.


No, not all of us are. Some of us are discussing PvP and gameplay issues well known to anyone who has paid attention to MMO's and MMO design over the last twenty odd years. No offense, but if you're not in that category, it's a mistake to assume that everyone else in the same boat.

Posted by Precision168 at Oct 17, 2017 8:30:45 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Only thing that brought me back to Y!PP was the new PvP aspect of this game and quite frankly I am loving it. I hope this post doesn't gain any traction from staff.

Posted by ZeroZiat at Oct 17, 2017 8:41:05 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Exactly my thought man. This is the server for that... If nobody wants to play in this server and they don't wanna go to the old servers then I guess they should open a new server with no factions and sinking PvP. Kinda tiring to see people telling the people who run the place what to do. If they said the concept is PvP and higher risk, then let it be so. What's up with all these people worried about being "victimized"? Can't take losing a battle? Don't even think you're good enough to win one? Worried about losing your ship? The enemy can lose their ship too. Launch an attack on them. Seek them out, talk it over. It's a different playstyle, people. Don't bring back the old, keep it new and don't ruin it. Damn. Gotta be thankful PP still being worked on even with OOO out of the picture. But it's never enough is it.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged except Obsidian.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 17, 2017 9:31:50 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
 
I think we all are trying to prove our point using anecdotal evidence, which is next to garbage.


No, not all of us are. Some of us are discussing PvP and gameplay issues well known to anyone who has paid attention to MMO's and MMO design over the last twenty odd years. No offense, but if you're not in that category, it's a mistake to assume that everyone else in the same boat.


I don't think you (or anyone) can magically know what the entire YPP community is thinking without obtaining a reasonable sample and obtaining data from them, even with years of experience. Hell, make it forty years of experience, if you so desire, in the hierarchy of evidence, it's still garbage. So unless you have few peer reviewed articles on this subject ready at hand, don't patronize me.

Everyone is basically talking out of their booties here(including me), in scientific terms. We need hard data, something to base our claims on. Even a poll would be just above garbage by the way, but it's still better.

For instance,
 
I submit that this experiment has failed. People are playing on this ocean in spite of PvP, not because of it. It is something that they are enduring - for now - in order to be able to play the game (with a reasonable number of active fellow players) at all.

 
I'd submit that there's plenty of players enthused and engaged in PVP and claims of failure are vastly exaggerated


Both are based on pure personal experience, and without GH setting some parameters to test this out, conduct a series of server experiments, we cannot know which one is more attractive for people.


----------------------------------------
Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 17, 2017 1:01:42 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
You'd need to suggest what parameters should be used to assess this, but I'm going by the size of the flags and crews that particularly go along with a pro-pvp stance vs the size and activity in those ones which don't. What's more - it's only some people who are being attacked at random. Most are set rivalries which were perhaps triggered by one person attacking another first, but then it just continues along with back-forth attacks until one side surrenders or gives up. I don't think there's many unprovoked attacks, and the ones that do occur are answered with adequate force.
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 17, 2017 1:13:08 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
You'd need to suggest what parameters should be used to assess this, but I'm going by the size of the flags and crews that particularly go along with a pro-pvp stance vs the size and activity in those ones which don't. What's more - it's only some people who are being attacked at random. Most are set rivalries which were perhaps triggered by one person attacking another first, but then it just continues along with back-forth attacks until one side surrenders or gives up. I don't think there's many unprovoked attacks, and the ones that do occur are answered with adequate force.



That's an awful lot of assertion without evidence.

* Is there a way to see the list of Crews on Obsidian? Or Active Crews (had Crew ships out on the water within the past week)?

* Is there a reliable way to identify a Crew as "pro-PvP" or "anti-PvP" (as all Crews are "PvP-enabled" by default on Obsidian)?

Edit for quote, since the page wrapped.

Posted by Devonin at Oct 17, 2017 1:16:16 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
I don't know how "Clearly the large active flags are the ones who are enjoying the PvP elements of the server" is an objection to the point that the people who don't like the PvP aren't playing as much, are leaving, and aren't joining when they see how PvP influenced the game is.

Yes...you're running one format of event, so eventually the only people left playing will be the ones who play that format. That is literally my point.

Yes, the size of the flags and crews that are pro-pvp is bigger. This is a pro-pvp game now. A bunch of us in the thread have said "Yeah...the fact that this is the way things are is making me less likely to get invested, less likely to stick around, and less likely to get new people into it"

I'm just curious which would be preferable to you:

This game also going stagnant in growth, peaking at 300-600 online and then slowly declining from natural attrition, but without ever compromising the "This is the PvP world" vision.

Attempting to find ways to allow other playstyles to flourish without negatively impacting the experience of the pro-pvp players, resulting in the population growing to some larger number before it levels of and starts declining from natural attrition.

(because lets be honest, this game's population is going to peak, and then start declining due to natural attrition no matter what we do)

But which do you think is better? 400 dedicated PvPers or 400 Dedicated PvPers and 200 non PvPers?

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 17, 2017 2:32:06 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
But which do you think is better? 400 dedicated PvPers or 400 Dedicated PvPers and 200 non PvPers?

Honestly? 400 PvPers only. The moment you allow people to have an opt-out of PvP, is the moment you start to infringe upon the enjoyment of the 400 and they are here because of PvP at least in part.
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by Devonin at Oct 17, 2017 3:06:24 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
But how does it infringe on them? We've literally described a scenario where their pool of players to PVP with is exactly the same, only now their pool of people to do everything else with is larger. Why is that bad?

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 17, 2017 3:15:29 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
If you provide a choice, people will migrate. It doesn't mean that it was needed to have the choice, it just means people will happily pay anything for an easier life in games. It infringes on the 400 when any other players within or outside the 400 are able to effectively skirt around the rules everyone else has to play by as per the core ocean rules and ways.
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 17, 2017 3:15:58 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
 
 
I think we all are trying to prove our point using anecdotal evidence, which is next to garbage.


No, not all of us are. Some of us are discussing PvP and gameplay issues well known to anyone who has paid attention to MMO's and MMO design over the last twenty odd years. No offense, but if you're not in that category, it's a mistake to assume that everyone else in the same boat.


I don't think you (or anyone) can magically know what the entire YPP community is thinking


Since I never claimed to know what the entire YPP community is thinking... I fail to see your point.

 
Everyone is basically talking out of their booties here(including me), in scientific terms.


In scientific terms, yes. But scientific terms, as impressive as they are to those who carelessly toss them around, aren't relevant here.

What is relevant is the abundant evidence from multiple MMO's spanning two decades. Given the choice between high risk non consensual PVP and either lower risk PVP or no PVP - players will choose the latter every single time.

As I said before, if you're not aware of the reality of MMO design and gaming trends of the last twenty years - that doesn't mean that everyone else is. That's not patronizing, that's cruel cold fact.

Posted by Devonin at Oct 17, 2017 3:47:58 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
And having high-risk competitive PvP as an option is a great thing to have. WoW was made much better by having Arenas in addition to Battlegrounds in addition to the PvE experience. More things to appeal to more people is good.

But people keep turning to "This is just the PvP server, go play on another one" as the response, when, as usual, Obsidian is currently 71% of all online players, and I'd be shocked if the other 29% weren't overlapped by some people with both clients open right now.

Posted by cmdrzoom at Oct 17, 2017 8:47:18 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
If you provide a choice, people will migrate. It doesn't mean that it was needed to have the choice, it just means people will happily pay anything for an easier life in games. It infringes on the 400 when any other players within or outside the 400 are able to effectively skirt around the rules everyone else has to play by as per the core ocean rules and ways.


And you don't think that "if people can choose not to engage in PvP, they will, and even pay extra for that privilege" is sufficient evidence of the desire for a different playstyle? You're admitting that the one you prefer can only survive with a (almost literally) captive audience.
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 18, 2017 2:19:18 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
I do not deny that a desire for another play style may exist. I'm saying it's a minority desire, contrary to the way Dark Seas operates and should not be accommodated for, especially in a blunt opt-out pay-to-avoid manner.
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 9:39:14 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
I do not deny that a desire for another play style may exist. I'm saying it's a minority desire, contrary to the way Dark Seas operates and should not be accommodated for, especially in a blunt opt-out pay-to-avoid manner.

Emphasis added.

You'd need to provide evidence of this.

There's a lot of reasons for people to want to be playing on Obsidian, most of which are completely orthogonal to any desire for (or against) PvP.
  • A new ocean, which doesn't have over a decade of cruft and politics attached
  • A notably larger player base than any of the other oceans, only one of which is still limping along with what could be called an active player base
  • A new appeal to Steam-centric players, complete with full Steam integration, including some combo deals and the permanent Officer and Labor badges, which are not available in other oceans

I'm sure that there are other reasons that don't immediately spring to mind. But the idea that the majority of people rallying to Obsidian are doing it because "YARR, PVP!" is unfounded, and would be a notable and significant deviation from what the gaming populace has said and demonstrated in every other online multiplayer game out there.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 18, 2017 10:37:03 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
I hope I didn't miss any of the opinions expressed here, but I think I have it all. Here's a multiple option poll, be so kind to fill it so we get an idea. A well constructed, well thought out google forms with proper demographics and data be few magnitudes better, but it's usually very very hard to convince people to fill out forms.

http://www.strawpoll.me/14177490
----------------------------------------
Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 11:10:00 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
The polling is nice, but the percentages are wrong. They're being represented as a percentage of the things voted on (the votes given, with each person being able to give more than one vote), not a percentage of the people who placed votes.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 18, 2017 11:19:57 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
The polling is nice, but the percentages are wrong. They're being represented as a percentage of the things voted on (the votes given, with each person being able to give more than one vote), not a percentage of the people who placed votes.


Oh biscuits. Should've used google forms after all. Here I thought it provided number of voters too. Without it, this is again worth close to nothing.

I'll try to think a way to salvage it.

Edit: Hmm. The idea was to get an idea anyway, so thinking again, not all is lost. GH can run a proper questionnaire if they want real data. Or if any other academics are present here with some spare time, that works as well.
----------------------------------------
Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Jcmorgan6 at Oct 18, 2017 11:33:45 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Pirate badge is also removed on other oceans too, so that answer isn't quite accurate.
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Jjc & Jice on Emerald
CI booty division stats

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 11:37:44 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
No, it's not useless. The top vote ("A fresh start") gives us a minimum number of voters - there's at least 27 people who participated (which honestly surprises me. That means we've got a lot of lurkers interested in the discussion, or someone posted a link to it in-game).

From that, we can create percentages on the others. 9 people voted on "Increased PvP" and "more sinking battles." So each of those represent 33% (or less, if there were more voters) of the participants - roughly a third of the vote participants are actually interested in the PvP for PvP's sake.

This is too small of a vote to really be representative on the whole ocean, but it's more than enough to give some guidance on the matter.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 18, 2017 12:25:25 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
or someone posted a link to it in-game

That might or might not have been me.
----------------------------------------
Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 18, 2017 12:38:35 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
I do not deny that a desire for another play style may exist. I'm saying it's a minority desire


Oh? Do you have any sort of proof that Dark Seas is different from pretty much every other MMORPG ever?

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 12:59:36 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
Voting seems to have died down.

"A fresh start" has 35 votes. So we have at least 35 voters.

"Increased PvP focus" has 11 votes, "More sinking battles" has 10 votes.

11/35= 31.43% (if anyone didn't choose "A fresh start" this percentage goes downward)

If we view this as representative of the Ocean, then Obsidian has a somewhat higher-than-typical PvP contingent... but it's still a significant minority, being less than 1/3 of all of the voters.

Edit: Now it's 40/19/17. 5 more votes on Fresh Start, but 8 more votes on PvP and 7 more on Sinking battles. So we know that there's at least 43 voters (and a an uncharacteristic wave of PvP'ers).

If I were a suspicious person, I would suspect that someone's trying to game the results by getting people to upvote the PvP options and NOT vote on "Fresh Start." But we're all respectable pirates here, and nobody would do that, right? Surely they'd realize that such discrepancies are obvious and detectable. ;)

Edit 10 minutes later: Now 40/21/19. Two more voters who voted for PvP options while not voting for the "fresh start" option. It's now gone beyond "suspicious" to "obviously meta-gaming."

But even with that said, that means +5 total voters (minimum) which brings the total minimum voter count to 45. The PvP'ers are still less than half the total.

Posted by wrs1864b at Oct 18, 2017 1:15:35 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
I hope I didn't miss any of the opinions expressed here, but I think I have it all. Here's a multiple option poll, be so kind to fill it so we get an idea. A well constructed, well thought out google forms with proper demographics and data be few magnitudes better, but it's usually very very hard to convince people to fill out forms.

http://www.strawpoll.me/14177490

The poll fails to measure an important aspect: why you chose *not* to be on obsidian. Sure, some people might choose to play on Obsidian *because* of the PvP, but others might choose not to play there at all because of it. Or the limited number of islands, or the routes are too short, or because of STEAM, or the name beings with "O".
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 18, 2017 1:37:49 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
 
I hope I didn't miss any of the opinions expressed here, but I think I have it all. Here's a multiple option poll, be so kind to fill it so we get an idea. A well constructed, well thought out google forms with proper demographics and data be few magnitudes better, but it's usually very very hard to convince people to fill out forms.

http://www.strawpoll.me/14177490

The poll fails to measure an important aspect: why you chose *not* to be on obsidian. Sure, some people might choose to play on Obsidian *because* of the PvP, but others might choose not to play there at all because of it. Or the limited number of islands, or the routes are too short, or because of STEAM, or the name beings with "O".


Well, I (or someone else) could set up a proper questionnaire, individually asking these questions. Like, what do you thinking of the new sinking waters, non sinking waters division. How about the faction system, and badges and so on. With branching paths like, do you play on obsidian, why or why not? But that would require at least an hours worth of thinking and designing. If anyone is up for that, shoot. Or I might... Eventually. Google forms gives good data, if anyone is interested in creating a form with properly set up questions, I'm willing to run the statistics.

Edit: You know what, let me create one real quick.
----------------------------------------
Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by katiemac at Oct 18, 2017 2:25:11 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 

People are playing on this ocean in spite of PvP, not because of it. It is something that they are enduring - for now - in order to be able to play the game (with a reasonable number of active fellow players) at all.


THIS THIS THIS!

Those of us who just want to putter around put up with the sinking PVP because we have no choice. Realistically, it's Obsidian or nothing. But at some point, those of us who don't like the PVP aspect (or rather, the cost of losing a ship to it) are going to tire of paying to play a game where we are limited to one "safe" area.

What I don't understand is why Obsidian can't cater to both groups. Designate half the archs as non-sinking, and the other half as sinking. Yeah, there is the issue of resources on sinking vs. non-sinking archs, but that can be balanced.

It doesn't have to be either/or.

Posted by katiemac at Oct 18, 2017 2:33:51 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews
 
If you provide a choice, people will migrate. It doesn't mean that it was needed to have the choice, it just means people will happily pay anything for an easier life in games. It infringes on the 400 when any other players within or outside the 400 are able to effectively skirt around the rules everyone else has to play by as per the core ocean rules and ways.


Your assertion in an earlier post was that the majority of people who play Obsidian are there because they love PVP. But now you admit that if those same people were given the choice to NOT PVP, they wouldn't. So...what happened to all those people who so love PVP that having an alternative option would turn them from the thing you say they love so much?

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 2:38:50 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
 

People are playing on this ocean in spite of PvP, not because of it. It is something that they are enduring - for now - in order to be able to play the game (with a reasonable number of active fellow players) at all.


THIS THIS THIS!

Those of us who just want to putter around put up with the sinking PVP because we have no choice. Realistically, it's Obsidian or nothing. But at some point, those of us who don't like the PVP aspect (or rather, the cost of losing a ship to it) are going to tire of paying to play a game where we are limited to one "safe" area.

What I don't understand is why Obsidian can't cater to both groups. Designate half the archs as non-sinking, and the other half as sinking. Yeah, there is the issue of resources on sinking vs. non-sinking archs, but that can be balanced.

It doesn't have to be either/or.

I'd say that it would make sense to make the four islands around the two faction-home islands "safe." That would mean all of the Darkling Seas and Straits o' Defiance Nav routes would be PvP-capable, but not sink-able. The inter-arch connecting routes (Whisper - Triplets, Devil's - Magpie, Loggerhead - Cavum, and Triplets - Anole) would be the first step of sinking oceans. Or cut it back even further, and make only the back four routes of the two faction archipelagos (Night Harbor, Point Petrify, Nevermore, and Flatback on the West, and Lionhaven, Kingfisher, Triumph, and Ridley's on the East) "safe."

That would still make going from Greywaters to either of the faction archipelagos dangerous, and also let people "raid" the opposing oceans to a degree.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 18, 2017 2:43:39 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Here, the google forms, a bit modified to get more quantifiable data.

It has 3 branches, new player, returning player, not playing on obsidian.

https://goo.gl/forms/k1lEbCVNn1vlCle63

and here's the data sheet, view only:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14A9BhUMEP-8kaoaid46Ea2F3PZbaqeYV2IQPNqqijEM/edit?usp=sharing

Please give me feedback before I start spamming the game again, getting all the flak :P
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 2:52:03 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
I'm not sure if it's broken or not. Completing the Obsidian Ocean questionnaire put me back at a blank (unanswered) Obsidian Ocean questionnaire.

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 18, 2017 3:06:04 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
I'm not sure if it's broken or not. Completing the Obsidian Ocean questionnaire put me back at a blank (unanswered) Obsidian Ocean questionnaire.

Should be fixed now, I shouldn't be creating things at 1 am, probably. Sorry about that. Forgot to set the appropriate sections to "submit form".
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Jcmorgan6 at Oct 18, 2017 3:06:30 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
I'm not sure if it's broken or not. Completing the Obsidian Ocean questionnaire put me back at a blank (unanswered) Obsidian Ocean questionnaire.

Yep, same, and the google sheets remains empty. It is indeed fixed

I also think it's worthwhile adding an option along the lines of, "yes but I prefer to play the other oceans" to the question "Are you playing Obsidian".

Another question I'd potentially have is, "I find myself playing more Puzzle Pirates since the release of Obsidian", in the how much you agree section.

I say this since I personally only log Obsidian during Cursed Isles rotation (And occasionally log Emerald outside of that period, but mostly consider the game not worth playing during that time frame) As a result my hours per week has gone down from around 50-60 to 2-3 (Averaged over a full month of rotation).
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Jjc & Jice on Emerald
CI booty division stats

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 3:11:58 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
I backed up until I found my actual entry page (several pages back!) and submitted that. It seems to have gone in... but it then asked me if I wanted to give "another response" (answer the questions again, I'm assuming). If people can multi-vote, that's definitely abusable.

Edit: Is there a Google page that shows the results? I find that the Responses spreadsheet is impossible to read for the relevant answers (in Column K).

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 18, 2017 3:18:54 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
I backed up until I found my actual entry page (several pages back!) and submitted that. It seems to have gone in... but it then asked me if I wanted to give "another response" (answer the questions again, I'm assuming). If people can multi-vote, that's definitely abusable.

The problem is that would require them to login to their google account, which is not exactly ideal. I don't think people would just sit there filling up forms all evening? I think. I hope? Sigh. Dammit.


Edit:
Does this work on your end? Because I have a beautiful view of the thing. You might have to be set as a collaborator to see it... https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1sT3WKg52p9r6w5gkHo2wEkxwYnxFHdBNHSu2wgU8Egc/edit#responses

Edit 2: I'd still have to run the statistics to see if those answers are significantly different, but it's fun to see the numbers go up. But we obviously need a bigger sample size here.

Edit 3: I removed the submit another form button, at least. Should be less of an option now. Also, I believe most of the traffic to the previous poll came from my in game postings. I'll do it tomorrow, I guess after revising this form.
----------------------------------------
Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 3:30:29 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
Edit:
Does this work on your end? Because I have a beautiful view of the thing. You might have to be set as a collaborator to see it... https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1sT3WKg52p9r6w5gkHo2wEkxwYnxFHdBNHSu2wgU8Egc/edit#responses

Nope. Takes me to the Obsidian Ocean questionnaire.

No worries. I think we have reasonable data from the first vote, even if someone was trying to manipulate it. Current totals are 44 (+6)/19/17. 19/50 = 38%. Even at that number, it's clear that the PvP-focused contingent is not a majority, and certainly not the supermajority-plus they seem to think and claim.

The classic PP system works well. You want to PvP with a chance of sinking? Declare war. When people take you up on the war, you get to do sinking PvP to your hearts' content with the people you're at war with... and can still PvP nearly everyone else, just with minimal consequences. Opt-in PvP is the only way that will never cost you players, because you never deal with people being unwilling victims suffering significant losses.

Posted by majestrate at Oct 18, 2017 3:47:07 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
The classic PP system works well. You want to PvP with a chance of sinking? Declare war. When people take you up on the war, you get to do sinking PvP to your hearts' content with the people you're at war with... and can still PvP nearly everyone else, just with minimal consequences. Opt-in PvP is the only way that will never cost you players, because you never deal with people being unwilling victims suffering significant losses.

This thread is not about sinking vs not sinking PvP. It's about PvP period, even non-sinking PvP.

Though, admittedly, I've only skimmed the last however many posts have gone up since my last post in here, so maybe it reverted to just sinking vs not sinking PvP.

As someone who prefers fighting NPPs (but is not averse to PvP), I liked the way CoH/CoV handled PvP. Someone gets challenged, they have 30 seconds (might've been a minute) to accept the challenge. That exact solution wouldn't do well here, but maybe something similar?

With that being said, I still believe that dnav to avoid PvP is sufficient (though could be improved upon by requiring the attacker to not have more pirates, including NPPs, than the defender).
----------------------------------------
#TeamEvil
Marto wrote: 
We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 3:52:30 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
 
The classic PP system works well. You want to PvP with a chance of sinking? Declare war. When people take you up on the war, you get to do sinking PvP to your hearts' content with the people you're at war with... and can still PvP nearly everyone else, just with minimal consequences. Opt-in PvP is the only way that will never cost you players, because you never deal with people being unwilling victims suffering significant losses.

This thread is not about sinking vs not sinking PvP. It's about PvP period, even non-sinking PvP.

Though, admittedly, I've only skimmed the last however many posts have gone up since my last post in here, so maybe it reverted to just sinking vs not sinking PvP.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PvP is capable at everywhere except the "newbie" Archipelagos (Orion Archipelago in Emerald) in the other oceans, correct? At any time, another player-run ship could engage you and effectively force a BNav fight, and (probable) Swordfighting duel. The only difference is that they can't sink you, and if you lose the Swordfighting, they take the same loot that an NPC would.

Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding something?

Posted by majestrate at Oct 18, 2017 3:57:51 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
 
 
The classic PP system works well. You want to PvP with a chance of sinking? Declare war. When people take you up on the war, you get to do sinking PvP to your hearts' content with the people you're at war with... and can still PvP nearly everyone else, just with minimal consequences. Opt-in PvP is the only way that will never cost you players, because you never deal with people being unwilling victims suffering significant losses.

This thread is not about sinking vs not sinking PvP. It's about PvP period, even non-sinking PvP.

Though, admittedly, I've only skimmed the last however many posts have gone up since my last post in here, so maybe it reverted to just sinking vs not sinking PvP.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PvP is capable at everywhere except the "newbie" Archipelagos (Orion Archipelago in Emerald) in the other oceans, correct? At any time, another player-run ship could engage you and effectively force a BNav fight, and (probable) Swordfighting duel. The only difference is that they can't sink you, and if you lose the Swordfighting, they take the same loot that an NPC would.

Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding something?

I'm not aware of any areas on any oceans being "PvP free". But, again, PvP not something I personally seek out, so it's entirely possible that I'm wrong.

To my knowledge the only time you can't attack another player is when that other player is on a navy vessel (aka a mission ["a mission from god"])
----------------------------------------
#TeamEvil
Marto wrote: 
We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 4:29:14 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
I'm not aware of any areas on any oceans being "PvP free". But, again, PvP not something I personally seek out, so it's entirely possible that I'm wrong.

To my knowledge the only time you can't attack another player is when that other player is on a navy vessel (aka a mission ["a mission from god"])

Okay, thank you for the correction. No "newbie" safe zone. So any time you're sailing in the old oceans, you can be intercepted and engaged by another player. But the consequences are non-sinking (unless your flags are at War), and the penalties for losing the Swordfight/Brawling is the same as a PvE loss (again, unless your flags are at War).

I don't really have a problem with that. My opinions have changed over the years. I was fiercely anti-PvP from the start (and the PvP that games like UO offered did nothing to help). While I still hate griefing, ambushing, etc. I can deal with that... if the cost isn't too high. But the costs here aren't cheap. Lose the swordfighting, you lose everything in your hold except enough Rum to reach another island. That costs you, what, a few hours' pillaging? Tolerable.

But the sinking cost. Not only are you losing everything in the hold, you're losing the ship, and either having to buy a new one or rebuild the old one. Even at the cheapest level, that's not a small loss. Vanilla-normal Sloops cost 85k. Cutters are 125k. And it goes up steeply from there.

Either you spend dozens of hours to recoup that loss, or you open your pocketbook to "replenish" your losses. This isn't a casual, easily forgotten loss... this is the sort of loss that makes people quit games.

Posted by Jcmorgan6 at Oct 18, 2017 4:51:00 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
But the consequences are non-sinking (unless your flags are at War), and the penalties for losing the Swordfight/Brawling is the same as a PvE loss (again, unless your flags are at War).


You actually lose a little more from PvP than PvE, source

 
The winning ship takes 25% of the losers' hold and 50% of the booty instead of the usual 10%/20%

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Jjc & Jice on Emerald
CI booty division stats

Posted by majestrate at Oct 18, 2017 5:07:57 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
 
I'm not aware of any areas on any oceans being "PvP free". But, again, PvP not something I personally seek out, so it's entirely possible that I'm wrong.

To my knowledge the only time you can't attack another player is when that other player is on a navy vessel (aka a mission ["a mission from god"])

Okay, thank you for the correction. No "newbie" safe zone. So any time you're sailing in the old oceans, you can be intercepted and engaged by another player. But the consequences are non-sinking (unless your flags are at War), and the penalties for losing the Swordfight/Brawling is the same as a PvE loss (again, unless your flags are at War).

I don't really have a problem with that. My opinions have changed over the years. I was fiercely anti-PvP from the start (and the PvP that games like UO offered did nothing to help). While I still hate griefing, ambushing, etc. I can deal with that... if the cost isn't too high. But the costs here aren't cheap. Lose the swordfighting, you lose everything in your hold except enough Rum to reach another island. That costs you, what, a few hours' pillaging? Tolerable.

But the sinking cost. Not only are you losing everything in the hold, you're losing the ship, and either having to buy a new one or rebuild the old one. Even at the cheapest level, that's not a small loss. Vanilla-normal Sloops cost 85k. Cutters are 125k. And it goes up steeply from there.

Either you spend dozens of hours to recoup that loss, or you open your pocketbook to "replenish" your losses. This isn't a casual, easily forgotten loss... this is the sort of loss that makes people quit games.

Or you hire someone to dnav (duty puzzle when in battle), if you aren't good at the puzzle.

Also, how often does it happen that the defender is unable to purely run away from the attacker? (meaning that they only tried to run; starting to run, then switching strategies to try and line up a good shot, then changing back to running doesn't count) I know that it happens, but I don't imagine it happens so often that it requires a code change.
----------------------------------------
#TeamEvil
Marto wrote: 
We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 18, 2017 5:31:54 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
This thread is not about sinking vs not sinking PvP. It's about PvP period, even non-sinking PvP.

Though, admittedly, I've only skimmed the last however many posts have gone up since my last post in here, so maybe it reverted to just sinking vs not sinking PvP.

As someone who prefers fighting NPPs (but is not averse to PvP), I liked the way CoH/CoV handled PvP. Someone gets challenged, they have 30 seconds (might've been a minute) to accept the challenge. That exact solution wouldn't do well here, but maybe something similar?


Ah, another former resident of Paragon City! Greetings from Doc Scorpion of Freedom! I don't recall any challenges in PvP zones, but I stayed out of them unless a mission took me there. (Got into a PvP fight with one of my controllers once. Taught an idiot that attacking a controller's pet rather than the controller was stupid. Had to teach him four times before he went away and stopped bothering me.)

That being said, there's a lot of different ideas being bandied about. I think most of us are OK with simply eliminating (or limiting) sinking because that puts the advantage to griefers, gankers, and other lowlifes. Sinking simply puts too much risk on the casual player.

 
With that being said, I still believe that dnav to avoid PvP is sufficient (though could be improved upon by requiring the attacker to not have more pirates, including NPPs, than the defender).


To me "hire a better dnaver than you if you suck at it" isn't essentially different from "go play on another server or don't play if you don't like it". It's telling me "you must alter how you play or be prey and be sunk", and that's unacceptable.

Posted by Nek0jin at Oct 18, 2017 6:16:59 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
Ah, another former resident of Paragon City! Greetings from Doc Scorpion of Freedom!

And greetings from Edifice Wrecks. *Atlas salute*

 
That being said, there's a lot of different ideas being bandied about. I think most of us are OK with simply eliminating (or limiting) sinking because that puts the advantage to griefers, gankers, and other lowlifes. Sinking simply puts too much risk on the casual player.

Agreed.

 
 
With that being said, I still believe that dnav to avoid PvP is sufficient (though could be improved upon by requiring the attacker to not have more pirates, including NPPs, than the defender).


To me "hire a better dnaver than you if you suck at it" isn't essentially different from "go play on another server or don't play if you don't like it". It's telling me "you must alter how you play or be prey and be sunk", and that's unacceptable.

Oh, was that the grand sum of that statement? I was still trying to figure out why he was giving suggestions that did nothing with regard to the problem. Now I see that he was saying, "Just don't lose." Which is a shallow and arguably immature counter; nobody is perfect, and even the best will lose once in a while.

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 18, 2017 6:22:19 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
I think most of us are OK with simply eliminating (or limiting) sinking

We are not mostly in agreement here at all.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by Scarpath at Oct 18, 2017 7:02:44 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
I have been playing a decent bit since the release of the ocean, nothing too serious. I've gone on quite a few pillages and SMHs. And so far, I've only personally ended up in one PvP situation. And that was just when another ship tried to out-job us for a cit run, and so we tried to sink them(Failing horridly since they just ran)

I think, instead of removing PvP, since it already is somewhat removed from many players, it should have some incentive to stay among the players who ENJOY PvP. Because let's face it: PvP can be a lot of fun, and some people life for it! You shouldn't just remove it because most of us don't like it. This ocean was already broadcast as a PvP ocean, after all.

Instead, offer a reason for players to go after other PvPers, instead of the players who don't really care for it. I made a suggestion here that I think could be quite good, and I'm sure you guys could come up with plenty others.

Call it a compromise if you will, between those who still want PvP, and those who don't want to deal with it(ME!).
----------------------------------------
Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core.

Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent!

Posted by Precision168 at Oct 18, 2017 7:20:06 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
100k bounty for anyone who sinks the anti-PvPer.

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 18, 2017 9:58:25 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
 
Ah, another former resident of Paragon City! Greetings from Doc Scorpion of Freedom!

And greetings from Edifice Wrecks. *Atlas salute*


Dang, we're everywhere for such a small game. I miss it so much.

 
If I were a suspicious person, I would suspect that someone's trying to game the results by getting people to upvote the PvP options and NOT vote on "Fresh Start." But we're all respectable pirates here, and nobody would do that, right? Surely they'd realize that such discrepancies are obvious and detectable. ;)

Edit 10 minutes later: Now 40/21/19. Two more voters who voted for PvP options while not voting for the "fresh start" option. It's now gone beyond "suspicious" to "obviously meta-gaming."


And that's the basic problem with any poll here... too easily gamed with the small numbers and the self selecting nature.

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 19, 2017 1:01:21 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
If I were a suspicious person, I would suspect that someone's trying to game the results by getting people to upvote the PvP options and NOT vote on "Fresh Start." But we're all respectable pirates here, and nobody would do that, right? Surely they'd realize that such discrepancies are obvious and detectable. ;)

Edit 10 minutes later: Now 40/21/19. Two more voters who voted for PvP options while not voting for the "fresh start" option. It's now gone beyond "suspicious" to "obviously meta-gaming."

OMG poker is rigged too! Why would you think people were terribly interested in a fresh start? Judging by numerous messages in early testing and announcement threads, a good number of players would have rather kept their stuff amassed on the classic oceans for Dark Seas.

Also since when was 2 votes in 10 min a statistically significant indicator of anything? Or for that matter, the results from a poll that's existed for mere hours.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 19, 2017 3:23:14 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
 
If I were a suspicious person, I would suspect that someone's trying to game the results by getting people to upvote the PvP options and NOT vote on "Fresh Start." But we're all respectable pirates here, and nobody would do that, right? Surely they'd realize that such discrepancies are obvious and detectable. ;)

Edit 10 minutes later: Now 40/21/19. Two more voters who voted for PvP options while not voting for the "fresh start" option. It's now gone beyond "suspicious" to "obviously meta-gaming."

OMG poker is rigged too! Why would you think people were terribly interested in a fresh start? Judging by numerous messages in early testing and announcement threads, a good number of players would have rather kept their stuff amassed on the classic oceans for Dark Seas.

Also since when was 2 votes in 10 min a statistically significant indicator of anything? Or for that matter, the results from a poll that's existed for mere hours.


Exactly. That's why I made this one: https://goo.gl/forms/cR0Xz3xfEhoILtok2

By steam infographics, in the last two weeks, 8000+-2500 steam users logged into dark seas. By worst estimates, 10000 players. For the questions with high gap between answers, about 100 should be enough. For the ones with head to head results (Like PvP right now.), we'll need about 370 participants to get enough statistical power. I intend to run this for a week, and then release the results with attached statistics. If we can't hit that many entries, well, we could run the problem of false negatives, but, buuut, I can't know for sure before running it. I'll see what I can do from there, but I'm a MD, not a statistician.
----------------------------------------
Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by Meeshdragon at Oct 19, 2017 4:15:52 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Pretty heavily disagree with the idea of opting out. Yes it's pretty tough at times, but that's sort of the point of this server, to be PVP. If you don't want to play pvp all the time, then play one of the many other oceans on there? I mean, I know they're not populated right now, but if enough people feel strongly enough about the pvp thing to move, then there's your playerbase. In the meantime, I don't think it makes sense to cut this ocean of its one defining feature.

Posted by Jcmorgan6 at Oct 19, 2017 5:33:11 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
Also, I believe most of the traffic to the previous poll came from my in game postings. I'll do it tomorrow, I guess after revising this form.


If you spam in-game global, you'll need to do it on Emerald and Cerulean too, else you're just going to make your findings bias towards what Obsidian represents.
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Jjc & Jice on Emerald
CI booty division stats

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 19, 2017 10:34:27 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
Why would you think people were terribly interested in a fresh start? Judging by numerous messages in early testing and announcement threads, a good number of players would have rather kept their stuff amassed on the classic oceans for Dark Seas.


Did it never occur to you that maybe those threads from months ago aren't actually reflective of the current situation? Especially when a number of us returnees didn't start on the new ocean until the email from the developers barely a month ago - weeks after the early testing period.

 
Also since when was 2 votes in 10 min a statistically significant indicator of anything?


Nobody claimed it was statistically significant - only that a sudden and sharp reversal of the trend was something worth noting. Which it is. When correlated with the posting times of interim results in this thread... the one-sidedness of those responses make it blatantly obvious someone was trying to game the results.

Posted by Mars at Oct 19, 2017 10:48:21 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
PvP. Anywhere, everywhere.
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Mars
(everywhere but Obsidian - stolen !)

Posted by Sagacious at Oct 19, 2017 10:55:04 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
 
Why would you think people were terribly interested in a fresh start? Judging by numerous messages in early testing and announcement threads, a good number of players would have rather kept their stuff amassed on the classic oceans for Dark Seas.


Did it never occur to you that maybe those threads from months ago aren't actually reflective of the current situation? Especially when a number of us returnees didn't start on the new ocean until the email from the developers barely a month ago - weeks after the early testing period.

They may not have represented your own opinion on the matter, but they are nevertheless still very relevant.
 
 
Also since when was 2 votes in 10 min a statistically significant indicator of anything?

Nobody claimed it was statistically significant

Nek0jin wrote: 
Stuff that indicates voting was drawing to a close; that votes accumulated so far were presumably representative of the ocean; that 2 people voting for similar things constituted some form of polling fraud.

 
- only that a sudden and sharp reversal of the trend was something worth noting. Which it is. When correlated with the posting times of interim results in this thread... the one-sidedness of those responses make it blatantly obvious someone was trying to game the results.

No it doesn't. You are wrong.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple

Posted by bahaakbu at Oct 19, 2017 11:19:07 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
When correlated with the posting times of interim results in this thread... the one-sidedness of those responses make it blatantly obvious someone was trying to game the results.


What? How, what? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 
Why would you think people were terribly interested in a fresh start? Judging by numerous messages in early testing and announcement threads, a good number of players would have rather kept their stuff amassed on the classic oceans for Dark Seas.


I'll point out this doesn't mean much statistically, currently, but to give you an idea:Within the population that has participated, 60% has been playing 10+ years and 25% playing for 5-10 years and within this population, 24/32 said a fresh start was what we needed, while 6/32 disagreed.

This of course, runs to this problem here:
 
If you spam in-game global, you'll need to do it on Emerald and Cerulean too, else you're just going to make your findings bias towards what Obsidian represents.


Then please do help me out. I do have free time, but I can't spend all my evenings ocean hopping. Let's get this biscuit done, so we can actually make some claims.

There are only two non-obsidian players participated.

Edit: I also would like to point out, there's a trend towards pro-PvP attitude, but it's nothing to make claims on. Like I said, help me out, get some other players on here, and we can conclude this once and for all.
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3

Posted by majestrate at Oct 19, 2017 11:31:25 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
To me "hire a better dnaver than you if you suck at it" isn't essentially different from "go play on another server or don't play if you don't like it". It's telling me "you must alter how you play or be prey and be sunk", and that's unacceptable.

And I see dnav, in this environment, as nothing more than a specialty. Similar to gunning or high-end carp/bilge/sails, "egging"/foraging/SF'ing in the various SMH's, or bnav in blockades.

 
Ah, another former resident of Paragon City! Greetings from Doc Scorpion of Freedom! I don't recall any challenges in PvP zones, but I stayed out of them unless a mission took me there. (Got into a PvP fight with one of my controllers once. Taught an idiot that attacking a controller's pet rather than the controller was stupid. Had to teach him four times before he went away and stopped bothering me.)

I had left the game for a few years and was very sad when I tried to return, only to find out that it had shutdown. DCUO is not even close to being as enjoyable as CoH.

Anyway, while there was the PvP zone (never went there), IIRC, you could also challenge 1v1? The latter is what I would say is the better option. I don't know how you would handle a PvP-free zone in PP:DS or even in YPP. There would be merchants who could operate with zero risk. Not a good idea, regardless of how many people think it is.
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We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


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Posted by majestrate at Oct 19, 2017 11:35:57 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
Oh, was that the grand sum of that statement? I was still trying to figure out why he was giving suggestions that did nothing with regard to the problem. Now I see that he was saying, "Just don't lose." Which is a shallow and arguably immature counter; nobody is perfect, and even the best will lose once in a while.

I don't even know what to say to such a sophomoric post.
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#TeamEvil
Marto wrote: 
We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3

Posted by elbeejay at Oct 19, 2017 12:34:40 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Just to throw in my two cents...

I don't see why this is such a big deal. Whether you are soloing, trading, or pillaging, it is not difficult to run away from another ship of similar might. Duty navigation provides an avenue for avoiding PvP encounters entirely, but even once you get engaged 10 turns to disengage isn't much trouble.

A situation where someone is disengaging but continues to be hounded by a PvPer (multiple engages) is not something new to YPP, and has always been considered griefing after a point.

I think it is entirely reasonable for the Greywaters to serve as an area for newer players to learn how to run a ship in a "safe" non-sinking environment. Once they have learned to man and run a ship, then they should feel comfortable sailing anywhere with the knowledge and comfort that they can disengage from any PvP they may get caught up in.

Am I missing something about the fundamentals of battle navigation and ship management? If anything it became easier to solo or run a ship undermanned when they gave every ship an additional bot a few years back.
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-Elbee on Hunter, Sage, Viridian, and Malachite

Posted by jdl1963 at Oct 21, 2017 7:14:03 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
 
To me "hire a better dnaver than you if you suck at it" isn't essentially different from "go play on another server or don't play if you don't like it". It's telling me "you must alter how you play or be prey and be sunk", and that's unacceptable.

And I see dnav, in this environment, as nothing more than a specialty. Similar to gunning or high-end carp/bilge/sails, "egging"/foraging/SF'ing in the various SMH's, or bnav in blockades.


Ah... so those us of us who aren't dialed into the social puzzle (and thus have access to high level dnavers) or who aren't lucky on the jobbing board (and don't have a higher level dnaver apply) are simply screwed then?


Or, to put it more simply, hiring a high(er) end dnavver isn't easy for most of us - and thus doesn't represent a solution.

 
I don't know how you would handle a PvP-free zone in PP:DS or even in YPP. There would be merchants who could operate with zero risk. Not a good idea, regardless of how many people think it is.


Most people in this discussion who object to the PvP situation object to sinking, not to PvP in general. Very few people are trying to eliminate PvP overall.

Posted by Devonin at Oct 21, 2017 8:10:56 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
Most people in this discussion who object to the PvP situation object to sinking, not to PvP in general. Very few people are trying to eliminate PvP overall.


And the ones who are, are also fully aware of potential economic abuses, and proposed potential solutions to that as well.

Posted by majestrate at Oct 21, 2017 1:02:22 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
Ah... so those us of us who aren't dialed into the social puzzle (and thus have access to high level dnavers) or who aren't lucky on the jobbing board (and don't have a higher level dnaver apply) are simply screwed then?

Or, to put it more simply, hiring a high(er) end dnavver isn't easy for most of us - and thus doesn't represent a solution.

You don't need an Ult/Leg/GM duty navigator any more than you need an Ult/Leg/GM gunner. But you go ahead and keep blowing this whole thing out of proportion.
 
I don't know how you would handle a PvP-free zone in PP:DS or even in YPP. There would be merchants who could operate with zero risk. Not a good idea, regardless of how many people think it is.

 
Most people in this discussion who object to the PvP situation object to sinking, not to PvP in general. Very few people are trying to eliminate PvP overall.

Again, the thread is not "address sinking", it's "remove PvP". Devonin has made that quite clear.
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#TeamEvil
Marto wrote: 
We can't rely on majestrate he yells at people


Avatar by the gracious and wonderful Phaerie <3

Posted by Devonin at Oct 21, 2017 2:52:49 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
 
Ah... so those us of us who aren't dialed into the social puzzle (and thus have access to high level dnavers) or who aren't lucky on the jobbing board (and don't have a higher level dnaver apply) are simply screwed then?

Or, to put it more simply, hiring a high(er) end dnavver isn't easy for most of us - and thus doesn't represent a solution.

You don't need an Ult/Leg/GM duty navigator any more than you need an Ult/Leg/GM gunner. But you go ahead and keep blowing this whole thing out of proportion.
 
I don't know how you would handle a PvP-free zone in PP:DS or even in YPP. There would be merchants who could operate with zero risk. Not a good idea, regardless of how many people think it is.

 
Most people in this discussion who object to the PvP situation object to sinking, not to PvP in general. Very few people are trying to eliminate PvP overall.

Again, the thread is not "address sinking", it's "remove PvP". Devonin has made that quite clear.


Again, this thread is "Discussing ways to allow specific people who don't want to PvP to opt out of PvP" not "remove PvP" Devonin has made THAT quite clear.

Posted by Jolyma at Oct 21, 2017 3:11:33 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Honestly, the Dark Seas server was advertised as a PvP ocean from the start. They included a non-sinking area for people who don't want to risk PvP. They altered the dnav puzzle years ago as a way for people to avoid PvP. Most people don't attack full ships, because it's a grind when both ships can constantly churn out moves. So you're options are stay in the non-sinking area, dnav, or use a full or close to full ship..

The whole point of Dark Seas was to give the masses what they want. The masses wanted a point for PvP. To be able opt out of a major part of the game, on this server, is not a good idea.
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Jolyma

Avatar by Sundancer

Posted by mantillon at Oct 21, 2017 3:46:19 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
I don't understand why you are making such a fuzz out of this. There is ALREADY a way to opt out of PvP and that is disengaging. If you are running a proper pillage with the right amount of manpower. As a Bnaver it is really not difficult to evade the enemy ship for 10 turns, that is if you are properly manned and actually KNOW how to run a pillage.

The situation obviously changes when you are running an undermanned ship or don't know very well the mechanics of running a pillage. This is where greywaters comes in; yes we all know that pay rates on greywaters are not the best but that is the POINT of greywaters. There is practically no risk (your ship will not be sunk) so that is why the rewards are less. Greywaters a place for new pirates to learn how running a pillage works without running the risk of sinking.

I don't understand why you want to opt out of PvP if the theme of this ocean is exactly to encourage it. Yes it is a little skewed to benefit the hunter rather than the hunted but that doesn't mean that if you get engaged on PvP you will automatically sink; if that is your point of view then just stay on greywaters until you feel more confident.

I have run numerous pillages and have been engaged in PvP only once (the first battle I disengaged, he then proceeded to follow me for a second engage and he ended up losing the fray). I also have an extra sloop that I leave unlocked for crew use in a SINKING archipielago and even the newest officers in the crew have not sunk it yet (fingers crossed).

Bottom line in my point of view is that you have some common sense and critical thinking before starting a pillage. It's not just about going on your ship and posting a job. You should Check the notice board for any enemy faction who is jobbing and check which island they're at. If an Ultimate bnaver from the other faction loading a pilly off of Huracan Island then just use a ship on another island. Don't have a ship on another island? Then wait for this person to finish their pilly to start yours.

I'm trying to convey my message in the best way possible; If you have at least some bnav experience and know how to actually run a pillage, being engaged in a PvP should not pose a threat to you, even if the enemy battle navigator is more experienced you should be able to run away or force a grapple and lose your stock instead of your ship. If being engaged on a PvP does pose a threat to you then just stay on Greywaters arch until you have the knowledge.

Your opt-out proposal would be somewhat imbalanced for the people that don't opt-out because you will potentially get the same high paying cuts for a battle without having to risk your ship. If there was PvP or not I don't care, I just think that the same rules should apply for everyone.

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 21, 2017 5:46:44 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
don't understand why you want to opt out of PvP if the theme of this ocean is exactly to encourage it. Yes it is a little skewed to benefit the hunter rather than the hunted but that doesn't mean that if you get engaged on PvP you will automatically sink; if that is your point of view then just stay on greywaters until you feel more confident.


While I disagree that it is a little skewed you are spot on with the ability to evade and run. I rarely get caught on a MB soloing on other oceans, when I am its cause I spawn in a bad spot or make a dumb move.

Its pretty basic to run but most try to fight then get hit which makes running hard... I don't think any mechanic other then upping the black ships likely-hood needs adjusting, and allowing it to sink the attacker in sinky waters.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by cmdrzoom at Nov 1, 2017 12:30:48 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 

The whole point of Dark Seas was to give the masses what they want. The masses wanted a point for PvP. To be able opt out of a major part of the game, on this server, is not a good idea.


Did "the masses" actually want that, or was it just a very loud minority?

Consider the example of WildStar, which launched on promises to cater to those who loudly wished for a return to the "hardcore" raiding and related gameplay of MMOs past. Unfortunately, it turned out that audience wasn't large enough to sustain it, and it cratered pretty hard.

(IMO, this was due to the aforementioned "loud minority" factor, and also to nostalgia - how many old players found out, when they were given what they asked for, that it wasn't really as fun as they remembered? or that what they enjoyed and could make time for as a high school or college student was no longer sustainable as an adult with obligations like job and family?)
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt

Posted by Devonin at Nov 1, 2017 8:37:57 AM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
 
I don't understand why you are making such a fuzz out of this. There is ALREADY a way to opt out of PvP and that is disengaging. If you are running a proper pillage with the right amount of manpower. As a Bnaver it is really not difficult to evade the enemy ship for 10 turns, that is if you are properly manned and actually KNOW how to run a pillage.


This is really patronizing and presumptuous. I never said I wasn't capable of escaping if I wanted to escape. And the idea that only a "proper" pillage with no swabbies, and skilled people and a bunch of experience is somehow valid for discussion ignores whole swaths of gameplay. You basically create a situation where only experts can do anything, but you can't become an expert under those circumstances. You and a buddy who just scraped together the resources for a ship going to pillage with the two of you and swabbies are just as entitled to a fun gameplay experience on your own terms as a stocked ship with legendary/ultimate puzzlers going hunting. You're defining 'knows how to run a pillage' as 'is experienced and skilled enough to avoid all pvp battle regardless of who attacks them' which is absurd.

 
The situation obviously changes when you are running an undermanned ship or don't know very well the mechanics of running a pillage. This is where greywaters comes in; yes we all know that pay rates on greywaters are not the best but that is the POINT of greywaters. There is practically no risk (your ship will not be sunk) so that is why the rewards are less. Greywaters a place for new pirates to learn how running a pillage works without running the risk of sinking.


As once again people willfully miss the fact that I (and I suspect many who also want a way to opt out of PvP) DO NOT CARE ABOUT SINKING. Stop assuming everybody who doesn't want PvP doesn't want it because they are some cowardly wimp who is desperately afraid to lose their items. I've put more dubs into my outfit, which is guaranteed to dust no matter what I do, than I have into ships, so the idea that we're afraid to lose a ship is such a non-starter. We just do not want to do PvP. I don't want to fight directly against other humans. Full stop. That's it. That's the whole thing. I want to have an option to PvE. Because I simply do not desire to PvP, especially not non-consensual PvP. I even baked auto-dusting of neutral ships right into the opening proposal.

 
I don't understand why you want to opt out of PvP if the theme of this ocean is exactly to encourage it. Yes it is a little skewed to benefit the hunter rather than the hunted but that doesn't mean that if you get engaged on PvP you will automatically sink; if that is your point of view then just stay on greywaters until you feel more confident.
Did you...I don't know...actually READ any of the thread before you decided to come in here with this crap? The idea that this is "The PvP server among a bunch of other servers" is bullcannon. The numbers of THIS server are already dropping and it's 75-80% of all online players. It is THE SERVER. The only one. This is the game. And since some of us who don't want to PvP still want this game to survive and possibly even start to grow instead of slowly shrink are proposing ideas for how that might be done, having people wander by without actually reading our position to say "If you're just too scared to play with the grownups, spend some time in the kiddy pool first" is really not a good look.

The intended setup of the server was to encourage PvP (Well, if we're honest, it was to see if a server that even more aggressively pushed buying dubs would work) but what ended up happening is that the fresh start appeal was enough to pull a bunch of lapsed players out of the woodwork and into activity, so suddenly this server is tripling the online numbers of the only other remotely populous server. But those numbers are already dropping again. And so it appears "More PvP!" was, if the thing designed to attract and keep players, -failing- in that goal. So it's time to consider other options, or watch the game slide into death again.

 
I have run numerous pillages and have been engaged in PvP only once (the first battle I disengaged, he then proceeded to follow me for a second engage and he ended up losing the fray). I also have an extra sloop that I leave unlocked for crew use in a SINKING archipielago and even the newest officers in the crew have not sunk it yet (fingers crossed).
Congratz. not the point since we don't care about sinking, we care about not having to PvP regardless of outcome.

 
Bottom line in my point of view is that you have some common sense and critical thinking before starting a pillage. It's not just about going on your ship and posting a job. You should Check the notice board for any enemy faction who is jobbing and check which island they're at. If an Ultimate bnaver from the other faction loading a pilly off of Huracan Island then just use a ship on another island. Don't have a ship on another island? Then wait for this person to finish their pilly to start yours.
It SHOULD be as simple as getting on your ship and posting a job. If you want to PLAY THIS GAME you should just be able to play it, and not go "Oh this guy who can trivially sink my ship is nearby, guess I'll just STAND HERE for as long as he wants to play, and only then, can I also play" That is such an absurd requirement to try suggesting should exist, and even worse if you think it already exists.

What do you actually think this game IS? Like, what is the cycle of activity for this game? Because my understanding is that it is

Desire items -> Pillage to earn currency for items -> Get items -> Desire items

And suggesting that the core principle that allows that system (Pillaging to earn currency for items) should either only be the purview of the expert, or people need to queue up and wait their turn to play if they don't want to have to play against other humans isn't just a new emphasis for a server, you're describing a whole other game from this game.

Go actually look at how Y!PP advertises itself to new players, and then consider what a new player would need to do to actually achieve the goals encouraged in the advertising.

 
I'm trying to convey my message in the best way possible; If you have at least some bnav experience and know how to actually run a pillage, being engaged in a PvP should not pose a threat to you, even if the enemy battle navigator is more experienced you should be able to run away or force a grapple and lose your stock instead of your ship. If being engaged on a PvP does pose a threat to you then just stay on Greywaters arch until you have the knowledge.
I'm trying to convey my message in the best way possible; We don't care whether or not PvP poses a threat to us. We care about not wanting to PvP or be subject to non-consensual PvP attacks. None of your response has shown even the tiniest awareness of the other side's position, you're just parroting the same tired inaccurate objections all the other "here to PvP, and I literally cannot conceive of another point of view if I tried" posters.

 
Your opt-out proposal would be somewhat imbalanced for the people that don't opt-out because you will potentially get the same high paying cuts for a battle without having to risk your ship. If there was PvP or not I don't care, I just think that the same rules should apply for everyone.


I should just start responding to objections like this with "Addressed already in the original post" so maybe you'll actually read it. If you look at the costs I was voluntarily associating with being able to be neutral, you'd find that a neutral player would probably spend MORE to play actively than a skilled bnavver with a penchant for disengaging.

Posted by elbeejay at Nov 1, 2017 1:07:00 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
Devonin wrote: 

 
The situation obviously changes when you are running an undermanned ship or don't know very well the mechanics of running a pillage. This is where greywaters comes in; yes we all know that pay rates on greywaters are not the best but that is the POINT of greywaters. There is practically no risk (your ship will not be sunk) so that is why the rewards are less. Greywaters a place for new pirates to learn how running a pillage works without running the risk of sinking.


As once again people willfully miss the fact that I (and I suspect many who also want a way to opt out of PvP) DO NOT CARE ABOUT SINKING. Stop assuming everybody who doesn't want PvP doesn't want it because they are some cowardly wimp who is desperately afraid to lose their items. I've put more dubs into my outfit, which is guaranteed to dust no matter what I do, than I have into ships, so the idea that we're afraid to lose a ship is such a non-starter. We just do not want to do PvP. I don't want to fight directly against other humans. Full stop. That's it. That's the whole thing. I want to have an option to PvE. Because I simply do not desire to PvP, especially not non-consensual PvP. I even baked auto-dusting of neutral ships right into the opening proposal.


Why is this a new issue then? Battle mechanics in the Greywaters are the same as those in vanillla YPP, they aren't exclusive to the Dark Seas. If the possibility of PvP ruins your experience so much, how did you manage to enjoy playing on whatever ocean you were on previously?
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-Elbee on Hunter, Sage, Viridian, and Malachite

Posted by Devonin at Nov 1, 2017 5:21:07 PM
Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT)
In spite of the PvP.

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